Occupy London

'Moody's think those banks are more vulnerable for the reasons given.'

You have a lot of faith in Moodys. Did Moodys warn people of the financial collapse, of the imminent collapse of Lehmans and Northern Rock etc?

Moodys are part of the system.

'I am narky because frankly it's all bollocks.'

It's not bollocks, it's democracy. The parties always accuse teh people of being apathetic about politics, but as soon as the public does anything but vote for their local MP, they are told it is the wrong thing to do. What will Miliband say? Will he say the same as he told the public sector workers when they went on strike i.e. it is teh wrong thing to do?

I also don't believe that anything will come of it. But I may be wrong, and the people doing it believe it is worthwhile. There is no harm in trying to change things by democratic protest movements. How would the suffragettes and the Civil Rights movements have achieved anything if they had sold goods at car boot sales and donated it to Public Services.

I think that many of the demands of the protestors are deliberately designed to undermine the effectiveness of the protest (i.e save the planet and all the usual left wing guff), they all seek to deflect from the real protest against the bankers.

Claig - It's only that bad because people won't recognise what we need to do to solve it.

I think it's largely about perception as well. The govt has not IMHO done a great job of explaining how the cuts for example in benefits will work. People need help to understand fiscal policy, it's not something we teach in schools. You are probably educated smart people - so you can read up and understand it. But the majority of people react before engaging their brains on this subject IME.

If you want to get involved get involved - your local community needs you. Go along to council meetings, find out what it's about. If you have any better ideas, share them.

It's not a question of what I do or don't believe. Moody's think those banks are more vulnerable for the reasons given.

I didn't say I disagree with the war, the Olympics or the proposals. I was just showing that we have lots of money to spend.

'And we have to increase foreign aid because foreign investment is one of the things that will help us later on.'

But we need help now, the Governor of the Bank of England said we are probably in the worst crisis this country has ever faced. How, then, is it possible to increase foreign aid, above the level we spent when we were riding high?

I am narky because frankly it's all bollocks. Whether you go or not, will make no difference, but the police service will have to spend yet more of their budget making sure you don't hurt yourselves.

I wouldn't move to Malta though. They don't sell Jaffa cakes.

Go on, knock yourselves out on your bridge, but FGS don't kid yourself that the government will turn round and say 'you are of course right, we're just being meanies. I know, let's turn every person who has more than 100k in the bank upside down, shake them and buy cakes for all of you, for ever.'

'Headlines today are that "Moody's downgrades the credit rating of 12 UK financial firms because it believes the government is now less likely to provide support" ... Bailouts less likely.'

I wouldn't be surprised if those headlines are to try and make the public feel better and dissipate public anger, at the time of these protests. If you believe that there won't be any more bailouts then you also probably believed Gordon Brown when he said "we have only 50 days left to save the planet"

Have you actually looked at what we spent

Please go look at those graphs - tell me that we can afford to go on like that.

You may not agree with war, or the Olympics (I'm with you on the latter, the former I don't think we can exit easily).

And we have to increase foreign aid because foreign investment is one of the things that will help us later on.

wmmc you're pretty narky about this.

Tell you what, you stay home counting out your 35% and browsing MovetoMalta.com and let the people who want to, do something to express their own pov. Cos that's democracy.

Headlines today are that "Moody's downgrades the credit rating of 12 UK financial firms because it believes the government is now less likely to provide support" ... Bailouts less likely.

'If the metaphorical kick is that public services get cut now so that later on my kids have the chance of a career and a decent life.'

Their university fees will rise to £9,000, but they won't stop there. The public services will be cut, but then they will be cut again and again. The bankers will be back for more bailouts.

'Did anyone really believe the country had the money for the plethora of services we received? Really?'

Of course we can afford it. How can we afford to pay for bombing Libya and ten year wars in Afghanistan and wars in Iraq? How can we afford billions for the olympics and billions for proposed rail projects? How, in what we are told is possibly the worst economic crisis the country has ever experienced, can we afford to increase foreign aid?

'some might say the riots in London in the summer were a sign of that'

that's what left wing phonies like Ken Livingstone say, but the riots were not political, they were about people looting electronics stores in a co-ordinated fashion.

And thanks Cogito and MrPants :)

Claig bending over for another kick? I'd rather be kicked than my children to be honest. If the metaphorical kick is that public services get cut now so that later on my kids have the chance of a career and a decent life.

And in terms of licking shoes....nah you'd be wrong there. I'm active in the parish Westminster wise. I don't just talk about it on bridges.

But no-one yet has explained what tangible difference is to be made by standing on a bridge.

Except the flu thing previously mentioned

A kick and licking boots?? No, in order to assure my child's future I'll be carrying on as normal, supporting him in every way I can and I'll save my protests for the ballot box. Tbh.. I like whomovedmychocolate's suggestion. Getting off the collective arse and making a positive contribution however small sounds a lot more likely to lead to improvements in society than standing in the middle of some road looking earnest.

Yes, you don't like it. I get that. Frankly, I don't like it either. But it's one of those bitter pills we have to swallow and if we get on with it, it will be over quicker.

Did anyone really believe the country had the money for the plethora of services we received? Really?

There's been lots of dissent - some might say the riots in London in the summer were a sign of that (and not just of bored people who wanted tellies for free) - but did they achieve much?

Anyway, it's the start of flu season, you are risking NHS budgets

whomovedmychocolate, people want to protest what has been happening. They want to show their discontent. Supporting their local public services will change nothing. It may even result in pay increases for the fat cats.

It's amazing it has taken this long for any real dissent. But I do wonder why it has taken so long, and if it has been co-ordinated for political reasons that the bulk of protestors are not really aware of.

'I would rather do something more constructive than block traffic.'

Is bending over for another kick and licking boots constructive?

voicing dissent is 'doing something about it'

So according to you the NHS shouldn't be funded through car boot sales but donating the proceeds from car boot sales would be a more politically effective way to protest than stopping the traffic in central London?

a) raising money for the NHS at car boot sales = completely missing the point
b) which action would get more attention: thousands of people blocking westminster bridge or me selling shit at a car boot sale?

No, but I think if you want to do something about it you have to get off your arse and do something about it and standing on a bridge isn't doing that.

you think the NHS should be funded by car boot sales?

Why don't you all, instead of going and occupying a bridge (trip trap reference goes here) why don't you round up any unwanted stuff, take it to a car boot sale, sell it then give the proceeds to your chosen public service that you support so strongly?

The people of NYC can do as they wish if they are unhappy. Personally, in order to guarantee my child a future, I would rather do something more constructive than block traffic.

The situation we're in right now is caused by the financial crisis, bailout, recession, and loss of tax receipts. It's not because the public have been spoiled silly with lavish public spending, or by buying themselves yachts and trips to Monaco.

What a load of bollocks. The financial crisis was caused by....wait for it....overspending. The bailout had to happen because of poor lending practices, encouraged to facilitate growth (ha!) through....overspending.

The recession is a result of....overspending.

This isn't an individual problem but a collective issue. It's the state's responsibility to do everything these days and you are acknowledging that by identifying them as the villain of the piece.

People chose to get credit. FWIW I didn't. I was raised to save up for stuff. Perhaps that's why I am solvent?

And as for the 'leeches' at the top - I guess that'd be me then. We pay 65% tax. Which makes it tempting to fuck off to Malta really. Yes we are really getting away with murder

There is no way to do this without cutting services. Really there isn't. Unless you propose that all public servants don't get paid for about oooh twenty years.