The elderly verses todays middle classes.

ivanhoe - why have you taken to spamming a parenting forum with endless threads about supposed ageism?

Your views may or may not have mwerit but by starting endless rather aggressive threads on the topic in this slightly unlikely backwater you do your pet topic no favours and come across as - rather odd.

Surely one thread on the topic is sufficient?

I was very disappointed with New Labour, and I do blame them for all sorts of things.

I know it's important to learn the lessons of history, but I'm more interested in thinking about the future. Some of the Coalition's policies are really worrying, imo, and will be very damaging to lots of people - for years to come.

So what did Labour do then, in your eyes?

Why is anyone blaming the coalition view for anything after 12 months when you can't blame Labour after thirteen years?

What a strange view.

Well, MrPants, not sure about your rather skewed historical analysis!

18 years of torydom before 1997 (think that's right?) left their mark and wouldn't have been that easy to undo, even if New Labour had tried. However, it's true that they haven't 'fixed' things. To do so, they would have had to take on the might of the globalised companies - and they were not confident enough to do so.

So, bullied by trade unions (according to you - I don't remember it like that) or bullied by global companies. Not much of a choice.

New Labour is/was not Socialism. I don't know anyone who thinks it was.

Ivanhoe, are you totally radio rentals? Thatcher was nothing more than a much needed reaction to the 1970's. In your pre-Thatcher paradise, British industry was hopelessly uncompetitive (mainly due to rampant and unchecked left wing trade unionism which had toppled the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of Edward Heath) which resulted in massive tax payer funded subsidies for failing businesses (If you can't see what is wrong with that, you are an idiot).

By privatising industry and selling off council homes she gave millions of people a stake in the wealth of the country for the first time - the dividends of those sell offs (BP, BT etc.) still make up the bulk of pension funds - we both want to look after our pensioners don't we?

As for the classless society speech, which lefties have consistently (and presumably deliberately) misinterpreted, what is wrong with making the family the nucleus of our society, or would you really rather an all powerful state (such as those enlightened societies such as Germany '33-45, East Germany, North Korea or Oceania (from 1984))?

Finally, Thatcher left office in '91. In the 20 years since, the Tories have been in power for 6 years, Labour for 13 and the Coalition Government for 1. Those on the left have had ample time and a massive majority in Parliament, to 'fix' things yet somehow they haven't. I suspect that it's because Socialism has been proven to hold no answers for our society.

ivanhoe
Have you a concise summary somewhere of the policies that you would like to see any future government enact?

Obviously, I guess they aren't going to be Labour policies.

pamplemousserose

Good news about their longevity.
Very, very unusual - particularly for men - to live so long 3 generations ago.

My gran died in her late 90s, being looked after by my auntie, who's now in her late 80s, while I look after my mum who's in her late 70s.

Oddly enough, it doesn't occur to me that I should expect to be looked after by my children, but that I should seek to make adequate provision for myself - as I hope I have.

All my great grandparents lived until their 80s. Their children, the generation that lived through the war, just got on with looking after them without complaint. I have no resentment towards those 70+ who lived through the war, and experienced real hardships.

Orrrrrr there just isn't the political will on the left or the right

How many successive governments have there been after thatcher?

I can only assume that she put in to law some sort or clause preventing the repeal of any of her acts, because given that it has been thirtyish years since she was in charge, it isn't as though there hasn't been time to undo things

ivanhoe

Thatcher?
Barking in her last term or two, with her popularity ridiculously boosted by the Falklands.

Her election was a reaction to "Crisis? What Crisis?" Callaghan, and the overweening issue of union power.

As an ex NE boy, it wasn't Thatcher broke the miners. It was Scargill.
Our "infrastucture"? Remember party lines? That was how the GPO handled demand.

Our manufacturing base? British Leyland - a wonder of exports there.

"rhetoric"

pamplemousserose

fair to add that in previous generations, most folk at 60ish were very unlikely to have been looking after their parents.

Oh please.

What a very interesting viewpoint.

our elderly people came though much harder times... And they paid their contributions and their taxes when working

Do you imply that today's generation - of whatever assumed class - don't pay their contributions and taxes? That's certainly the inference.

Far more people pay higher rate tax than ever before, through the magic of tax rates not being indexed.

I despise Thatcher for her facist doctrine of the individual over society and community.

OK, explain why her doctrine was fascist [which I assume you meant rather than facist]

Read the "no society" speech.
[http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106689]

who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations

the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate

there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!"

doesn't souund much like caring for the individual over community; rather that people recognise they are part of a community.

Yes, I think we should look after our oldies. My Pils, one in their eighties, have lived an extraordinarily modest life. Now they're paying STILL into the welfare state. So much for needing all these children to look after the pensioners. The pensioners are still looking after them.

I think you probably don't realise that you are criticising an over-lavish welfare state - Labour - and house prices/privatisation - Tory.

The 45-65 for the most part enjoyed free uni education, grants, HB during study, ability for one parent to work only due to affordability of housing, massive house price boom, final salary and public sector pensions, privatisation share benefits.

However they may be about to lose it all in care home fees, care taxes, inheritance tax and so on.

The younger generation has to pay for everything and can't afford houses.