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Politics

The Denigration of women in Islam.

61 replies

Arthur2 · 25/05/2011 23:23

Why is that women in this country are not more vocal about the way Islam treats women.

Take a look at 4.05 minutes, a women beaten with a baseball bat is told she must be a bad Muslim, in a so called Shari'ah court.
Women are forced to cover up so that men won't be tempted, what?
So why aren't women standing up for the oppression of women under Islam.
Genital mutilation, Forced marriage, rape within marriage.

Shari'ah courts that discriminate against women, give custody to children based on religion, not the welfare of the child.

Why are you silent on these isues.

OP posts:
creighton · 07/08/2012 14:42

the hatred of jew was endemic in european society, that's why it was so easy to implement a murder policy against them. it wasn't only hitler and his friends influencing people

Ragdoll12 · 07/08/2012 13:30

Kudos to laiyank for proving my point about the media sensationalism be it Saudi, Egypt or even here in the uk. Fgm! Since when was that an Islamic thing where Islam gives women equal rights to sexual pleasure. I'm sure thats a tribal African thing. So funny that people have such bigoted ideas that they want to spread their misinformation. Isn't that what hitler did with the Jews. He decided he didn't like them for whatever reason so him and his mates decided to spread a lot of hatred about them, and cos they were all sheep they fell for it. I know a local jewish rabbi in prestwich who agrees that it's the same media tact used. Do your research if you dontbelieve me.

Ragdoll12 · 07/08/2012 13:15

Wow. If you guys knew the real Islam and not the Islam the media likes to portray you will realise Saudi is not an Islamic state. A sharia compliant Islamic state is not formed simply by a majority Muslim population. I don't think a true islamic state will exist as people are just too twisted to follow Islam properly. That leads to unjust treatment (to Muslims aswel as non Muslims) as people are not truly religious or are lacking the intelligence (yes u need intelligence, which is why we look to proper qualified scholars to understand what islam says (take note, taking quotes in isolation people) and they bend the rules to suit themselves. I'm a very British Muslim woman who came from a very liberal muslimfamilybut a few years ago I chose to start practising my faith cos I genuinely believe in it, a religion is not like a man made law whether in Saudi or here, it's on a different level. If you don't believe in god then you will not understand the concept of religion and why people will choose to submit to an invisible 'being'call it what you will but i will try my best as i accept you for your disbelief, i even understand why you do t bellieve in god as i was like that too but i changed my mind from my own reading, not being brainwashed (I'm an educated adult ffs with reasoning skills so please don't insult me with the 'she's been brainwashed' line. I wish people would speak to true Muslims rather than whoever they see on the telly. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not. If you don't care for Islam and think all the terrorists are cos of Islam etc etc you need (well you dont NEED to do anything) to wise up and educate yourself urself but I feel people on the internet don't really want to know about the people who follow Islam properly, that's too boring! Pm me of you're genuinely interested in what I have to say, and are intelligent enough to not fall for media propaganda about Islam (not said people who happen to be 'Muslim' and just want to know the truth. if youd rather stay ignorant and revel in your misinformed media drivel then go right ahead. If you need to scapegoat a religion for society's ills then blame Islam like a flock of sheep which isn't cool considering education is about reason not following a crowd. Peace x

HollyGoHeavily · 31/05/2011 16:14

"Sure, it would be great if women could drive, but judging from the women I have met there, many of them are simply not ready for such responsibility, and what?s worse, look down upon activities where they end up doing work instead of being served. All those women you interviewed ? I challenge them to let go of their string of maids and drivers, and take charge of all the work they leave behind, including filling up their car with petrol at the station rather than getting a man to do it. They would be horrified to have to do such work."

This, and the whole of that post, makes me want to scream with frustration - women shouldn't be given equality because some of the richer ones might have to get their hands dirty filling their cars with petrol.

Stop The Revolution, we have found the compelling argument against female emancipation! Hmm

GothAnneGeddes · 31/05/2011 15:49

Mercibucket - However, if she'd said Muslim women were oppressed, then I'm sure she'd be exactly the 'right' kind of Muslim for you.

mercibucket · 29/05/2011 21:57

could we hazard a guess at Safia being a sunni muslim from the upper classes used to a rather different lifestyle from some of her sisters?

perhaps they could all eat cake as well while they're at it, being poor and oppressed and all that.

newwave · 29/05/2011 21:49

TBH I think all religions are bullshit but SOME FOLLOWERS of Islam are the worst for the following reasons:

They think they have the right to control women.

They think they have the right to impose their standards on others.

They think they have the right to censor what is shown and printed (Danish cartoons and Satanic verses) and respond with death threats and violence.

They think they have the right to declare an area a "gay free zone".

They think they have the right to be outraged if their views dont have precedence.

That said some of the "Born agains" in the States can give them a run for their money.

HHLimbo · 29/05/2011 20:15

There are more issues in leaving islam and being an ex-muslim though Alex. The recommended punishment for leaving is the death sentence, so I can see how that might be a problem you would want support for.

alexpolismum · 29/05/2011 11:24

I had never heard of Maryam Namazie before, so I googled her, and found that she is the chair of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain - an organisation I was also unaware of. I must admit it did seem a little odd to me - are there also organisations for ex-Christians, ex-Hindus and so on? I am an ex-believer, but it never occurred to me to join an organisation. I just get on with my life without religion in it and let everyone else get on with theirs as they see fit.

GothAnneGeddes · 28/05/2011 01:28

Slooberus - There are actually several Muslim women MP's in the UK, so it's not really fair to generalise, or expect passing Muslims reading this thread to have a psychic link to the other Muslims at the gathering.

Arthur2 - Mariam Namazie is hardly an unbiased source is she?

Saudi women are currently fighting the driving ban, so are not in need of your condescension.

Arthur2 · 27/05/2011 21:16

I don't think that I'm allowed to post a link so perhaps it's a cut and past job.
Mariam Namazie say's that this does happen in the UK.

I was talking about the UK and not Saudi Arabia, their laws are their laws, when in Rome.

I know many ex muslims in the UK, many of them women who have had to go into hiding, so fearful are they at the response of their community.

OP posts:
laiyan · 27/05/2011 11:16

I dont agree with everything she says, and sometimes i feel her tone is too argumentative, but it gives a different side of the issue that is popular in the media.

laiyan · 27/05/2011 11:16

Hello

I saw the Newsnight report on Saudi Arabia, focusing on the lives of women who live there

(news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9436095.stm).

I have to say, I have never seen such biased reporting in all my life. The reporter obviously had a set agenda and fed every Western-propagated stereotype that exists out there. I have lived for 22 years in Saudi Arabia, and go back every single year to spend the summer or winter holidays with my family. So I think it is fair to say that I know Saudi Arabia a bit better than your reporter.

There were so many blatant lies told in this piece, such as:

  1. Until recently women in Saudi Arabia could only work as teachers - excuse my French but WHAT CRAP. Well over a decade ago I held jobs in Jeddah such as graphic designer, and newspaper editor of the largest English daily in Saudi. In both instances I had to work with male colleagues, and it was never an issue so long as all the parties concerned maintained a modest dress code (something the West would do well to learn from Saudi Arabia - ogling at your female colleague's cleavage and butt cheeks doesn't usually make for a productive, mutually respectful and safe work environment).
  1. Women in Saudi need their male guardian's permission to work - again, a whole lot of BS. I have never ever been asked for my male guardian's permission before I was offered a job.
  1. Women have to buy all their undergarments from stores that are manned by male salespersons - the Saudi woman you were tailing in this regard seems to be clueless that there are shops in Saudi that are manned by females, where men are not even allowed to enter; there is even a female Naomi and Body Shop in Saudi.
One of the issues you chose not to address in this regard is the fact that, its all very well for Saudi women to complain that there arent enough female salespersons; however, how many of them would step in to those jobs themselves? They look down upon such work, and are used to being served, not serving others. Until their mindset changes, and they become more pro-active and hands-on, they will continue to enjoy the luxury of complaining about problems without actually being part of the solution. What is stopping these women from setting up shops w/ female staff? These women own so many businesses, ask them why they dont hire more women?
  1. Unaccompanied girls are not allowed to leave the house - well, all I can say to that is your reporter must have been blind while travelling the country, because wherever I go is teeming with unaccompanied girls. Every restaurant, mall, and public place is covered with them.
  1. Women who cant afford chauffeurs cant work because they cant drive - ever heard of public transport? Whenever I am in Saudi Arabia, I hate troubling my brother or father to take me anywhere, so I cab it. Easy, quick, affordable, and safe. So these women who are so helpless that they cant work because they dont employ drivers need to again become more proactive and stop blaming their country for every sneeze and headache that they have.
  1. Beyond teaching in an all-girls' school or college, career opportunities are limited - I have met women who work in fashion as buyers for French brands; women who run businesses; women working in journalism; as interior designers, graphic designers and fashion designers; female doctors and dentists; and so on. In which country exactly was your reporter may I ask???
  1. Customs such as arranged marriages, underage marriages, and polygamy still prevail - if ever there was a sentence that sums up your narrow minded view and approach, this has got to be it. Your reporter has made it clear that if she doesn't like something or doesn't agree with something, then it has got to be bad and must be reported as such. In other words, all things Western are good, and everyone else must do as we do. The world is a varied place, with many different faiths, cultures, languages and dress codes; just because you subscribe to one of those doesn't automatically make the rest of them evil. That is like saying that, because I like chocolate ice cream, all other flavours are evil. Just because you cant understand polygamy or the concept of arranged marriages doesn't mean that its an evil; all it does mean is that you need to broaden your understanding and look at things from another person's point of view. Dig deeper into the culture and history of a place and try to be more understanding, rather than making up your mind at the outset.
As far as under-age marriage is concerned, look at your own society with its underage rampant sexual affairs and the immature, irresponsible teenage mothers that are a direct result of that. At least marriage gives a girl her rights, and protects the children that result from that marriage. When I was in hospital in the UK giving birth to my first child, that same day a teenager gave birth to a baby and refused to even look at or hold it, immediately putting it up for adoption, thus adding to the taxpayer's burden and increasing the drain on the country's resources, not to mention the trauma that child was no doubt going to experience. But your reporter would prefer that over underage marriage right? How blinkered can one get?
  1. Women cannot leave the house without wearing an abaya - Again, if the blindness of your reporter ever lifts, she might see that numerous women can and do wander around without an abaya. The truth is that, a woman in Saudi prefers wearing the abaya in public because it makes her feel safe, she is shielded from the stares of every Tom Dick and Harry, and, as one British, non-Muslim personal trainer I met at the airport commented, it is a very elegant and beautifully tailored garment, and makes a woman feel like a woman (she was taking her abaya back to the UK with the intention of wearing it during the autumn months). In your report is a clip of women in a mall, all of them covered from top to toe. Again, your bias was shocking, as malls are full of young girls with their abayas open, their clothes on display, and not a headscarf in sight (after all, if they are going to spend a small fortune on having their hair styled, its got to be on show right?). But we didnt see that did we?

As for the lady with the victim mentality who moaned about Saudi Arabia being the world's largest female prison, my message to her is that the prison is in your mind. If you are proactive, intelligent, and determined, there is almost nothing you cant achieve in Saudi. The trick is to realise and celebrate your own faith and culture, and work with it, rather than try to ape the fatally flawed Western model of society with all its ills covered up by a facade of irresponsible freedom without any consequences (there are consequences, but the state ends up shouldering them and passing on the burden to the already drowning taxpayers).

Of course, Saudi Arabia is not a utopia, and like any other country, it has its share of good and bad. But your reporter went in with the sole purpose of creating a bad where it didn?t exist, exaggerating the bad that does exist, and completely ignoring all that is good in Saudi Arabia.

Sure, it would be great if women could drive, but judging from the women I have met there, many of them are simply not ready for such responsibility, and what?s worse, look down upon activities where they end up doing work instead of being served. All those women you interviewed ? I challenge them to let go of their string of maids and drivers, and take charge of all the work they leave behind, including filling up their car with petrol at the station rather than getting a man to do it. They would be horrified to have to do such work.

But in the meantime, where?s the harm in complaining? At least it gets them on TV.

Safia, a SAUDI woman

laiyan · 27/05/2011 11:15

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9436095.stm

this is the article referred to in the following post. I will cut and paste the letter written my my friends sister.

laiyan · 27/05/2011 11:14

lol, i do get it coz i cant do caps in mumsnet either

I speak from personal experience. I have NEVER found it to be a problem, not being able to drive. Exactly the same with all of my female friends and colleagues. It was always the men who complained far more about women being unable to drive and having to ferry them around.

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 09:39

caps? sporry

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 09:39

bad spelling, no specs, you getit I'M SURE

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 09:38

Yes, there are tenents of Islam that speak of the worth of a woman, and there is also the statementt that a woman is worth half a man. In Egypt you still need two female witnesses in a court to counter the evidence of one male witness.

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 09:37

It is an issue when your driver is not there and you have two cars sitting in the drive and want to go shopping. I too have lived in a driver/emploer community. How about you just want to go for a drive, alone, in your car? I'm disgusted that you can defend such a ban.

laiyan · 27/05/2011 08:52

goosbumps, i disagree about women having no recourse.
i lived and worked there for years. Not driving was never an issue. The only time driving was a problem was in the uk because i had to do too much of it. I also only passed my driving test aged thirty because before that i really couldnt see the need for it.

As for recourse, of course there is always recourse. Instead of sitting around on their backsides, these women can get up and do something. get a law degree, work through the system, not just by doing soundbite media attention grabbing stunts. but most just cant be bothered, and the reason a great many cant is because it isnt that big a deal. I have to go now, but later in the day i will post an article that my friends friend wrote. I dont agree with everything she says, but its worth a read.

Also, whilst many may think of islam as denigrating islam, if youlook at the times it came about, it was a very feminist ideology. but more later

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 07:55

It's good that Muslims who live a more modern interpretation ignore the precept that a woman's worth is half that of a man. But you cannot forget that it's there.

Gooseberrybushes · 27/05/2011 07:36

Laiyan, the women have no recourse re: the driving. A sixteen year old driving is likely to be unsafe. A woman driving? I don't think so.

And if everyone waited for the slow wheels of repressive law to move we would never have got anywhere.

laiyan · 27/05/2011 00:10

oops. i think i posted rather hastily. ive had a bee in my bonnet about this for sometime now, and my apologies nailak. you havent actually said the stuff i have spoken about.

laiyan · 27/05/2011 00:09

nailak, the point about women not being allowed to drive in saudi arabia, is that it is illegal. in exactly the same way as it is illegal for a 16 year old to drive in the uk. It is a law that needs changing certainly, but just getting up and flouting the law isnt going to accomplish that.

would you raise such a campaign if a 16 year old or someone older, but without a license got into a car and drove it about, and were then according to the law, arrested? no. you wouldnt.
yes, the law needs to be changed, but there is a civilised way to bring that change about. taking the law into your own hands, and then getting amnesty involved isnt the way to go about it.

as for the law about mothers not getting access to their kids. that is horrible and there are a LOT of groups out there campaigning for this. The trouble is that the news tends to focus only on the women who cant be bothered to do anything but complain about it all rather than the men and women who are actually trying to do something about it all.

Gooseberrybushes · 26/05/2011 23:53

I think it's a mistake just to attribute it to bad individuals. I said this somewhere else, though not about Islam. The acts are the end results of a powerful social construct based around Islamic culture which needs to be challenged. Women in Britain need to feel protected by a non-discriminatory law and the freedoms that we fought for so hard. All women. Not just non Muslim women and not just Muslim women whose families are non-discriminatory. In fact, it's those Muslim women who will have the most powerful voice in this, like Baroness Warsi. It's inconceivable that any woman, including Muslim women, particularly Muslim women, can be defensive on these issues.

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