The Denigration of women in Islam.

Orthdox jewish women shave their hairs, wear wigs and have to cover after they marry forever.

People are so biased to muslims when their are other faiths with similar views.

Laiyan, I can't believe your actually defending a barbaric shithole that publicly executes people for things like homosexuality, apostasy and motherfucking witchcraft. Its dsuigting, I'd rather live in North Korea.

Couthymow, I love your nick! I know what you mean. I don't know anyone who wears the full face veil personally but if I did wear it myself i would feel I'm giving the message that I don't want to be approached by anyone which isn't illegal but i like to feel included iykwim. I guess they follow a stricter opinion. I cover cos I want to obey god as best as I can and also like to think my dress deters men from chatting me up (not that they would but just incase cos im a happily married lady person) but I wouldn't want men or women to be nervous to speak to me. If I wore a veil I would expect that people would be reluctant to speak to me. I like to think veiled women expect that too. I smiled at a woman (or man!) once and I knew she smiled back cos her eyes squinted but I didn't get any satisfaction from it as i would if I saw someone's face light up. I think it looks quite glam in the desert but I can see why it looks scary here cos its generally all black. I don't even like wearing black I love colour but each to their own.

Most people I know have absolutely no issue with Muslim women covering their hair. It is the full-face covering that is objected to as it is inhibitive to conversation as you can't see someone's facial expression.

Just as full-face covering is a cultural norm in some other countries, in the UK it is a cultural norm to remove any and all head coverings indoors.

This is possibly why there is such a culture clash.

The majority of white people I know would see it as downright rude and ill-mannered to wear ANY sort of head covering indoors, hat, scarf, baseball cap, anything.

I know nowadays, even lots of British people don't see it as such, but there will still be quite a few that DO.

I personally have many friends who wear a headscarf, but I find it too difficult to cultivate friendships with those women that wear a full-face covering, as it is too difficult to get 'into' a conversation with them as I cannot see their facial expressions. Over half of all communication is non-verbal, and wearing a full face covering has the effect of cutting out the majority of non-verbal communication.

If my friends that wear a headscarf admit that they find it difficult to maintain friendships with other Muslims that wear a full-face cover, how is someone NOT brought up in that culture meant to manage it?

I feel that it is perfectly possible for a woman to be a good Muslim, and follow the teachings of the Qu'ran while wearing a headscarf, while a full-face cover, in the UK, is unnecessarily divisive, and not religiously necessary.

A headscarf, yes, a full-face cover, no.

Er, if you read the above posts nobody accused anyone of racism here. And nobody said you couldn't criticise a belief system. It's when that criticism slides into bigotry and causes the followers of a certain belief to be physically attacked. We are talking about consequences here. The consequences are not different to racism as Creighton, who is black said she could relate to some of my experiences. Being critical of a religion is totally different to being a bigot. Bigots just need an excuse to spread their hate, you can tell by the language they use as they can't seem to refrain from insults and they don't want to be corrected If they are wrong about something (see my obove mention of man who wouldnt accept that i choose to cover and am not forced and the above links to those articles if you want).

If you were writing a critical analysis, would you use insults? You would express your opinion in a polite manner as if you are on Question Time as that's what civilised people do, dont they? If you don't think you need to refrain from offending people then it's fair game to swear and curse at whoever. If somebody is dear to you be it your wife or Jesus or allah or your pet hamster (you cant tell people who they should love btw) its not nice to have someone tell you they are a [insert offensive] however, most religious people turn the other cheek to blasphemy so im not saying stop the blasphemy, for the record. but there are the sensitive, emotional ones who get really angry (youknowwho cartoons) and go nuts. But is it worth causing that discourse in the first place if there is no real need? Thats a genuine question im putting to you as i honestly don't know the answer. I'm not asking you to 'respect' a belief system. Just think of the consquences of your actions, thats all. Accidental offending is no biggy as we are all human and most people get it as the person usually elaborates soonafter and there are many who have no tact who don't think of consequences but it is those those who deliberately want to cause problems in society in the name of free speech or the new anti-PC brigade that offends anyone they can get away with, as you see with all the false PC gone mad stories that imply muslims are offended by christmas etc thus making even civilised political correctness really unfashionable (www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/winterval-modern-myth-christmas)

When you are critical of something you don't become emotional and show your prejudices. Critical people have dignity about them. If you can't tolerate a person's belief or lack of belief then how are you any better than extremists? Nobody wants special treatment, just tolerance.

I just wanted to make the point that disliking/being fearful of Islam is not racism, since ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, it is a religion (i.e. a set of beliefs open to scrutiny and criticism in the same way as Judaism, Christianity, Scientology, Marxism, Capitalism, Fluffy Marshmallow Skygodism).

Islam has many white, Anglo-Saxon followers, black followers, Asian followers etc, so accusations of racism don't hold up and those accusations just look like the tired old method of trying to suppress debate and opinions that are different to ones own.

Creigton, I don't mind you not liking Islam. It's not a huggable religion, as salmon Rushdie put it. I find many laws in islam and the UK law restricting but I abide by them as i feel they're for the greater good of society. Especially whilst driving. Speedlimits are bad for individuals but good for road safety.i can understand though with Islam it's more practical covering elements people don't like which I totally understand. You have to really believe in it to want to do it.

Creghton - I didn't think that at all tbh.
Racism creates the same hatred and feelings towards people as does the stuff I'm going on about. Politically, racism is just not allowed but you can still cause similar hatred by being anti x religion. I think difference is the problem. People are afraid of what's different to them. I think being a minority having to deal with said rubbish makes me compassionate towards others. Hence I would feel like a hypocrite if I discriminated the same way people discriminate me. I don't know any black people personally but I don't discriminate, I have my religion to thank for that which also gives me the balls to stand tonpeople who make racist generalisations. I usually say "then its ok for people to say all muslims are arab terrorists?" "no but yeh but" shaap! and If there wasn't Muslims to target, it would be the next most different people, Sikh maybe. It's not like Britain was a peace haven before all the immigrants turned up. Look at the Irish, Scottish. It never ends.

Flatpack:
Sorry Flatpack I misread some of what you were saying. I have no idea what IIRC is. Maybe a reformist movement. I follow the Quran and authenticated sayings of the holy prophet as we are instructed to do in the Quran which we believe is the word of god. Anything were unsure about we look to qualified scholars and when there's a difference of opinion between scholars, the prophet instructed us to go with what is easiest for us as individuals. Now the issue of head covering is mentioned explicitly in Quran. If you go for direct translation, the 'khimar' is mentioned (I will do quotes if you want me to but I'm sure you can look that up) and that refers to a head covering. There is no dispute between scholars or arabic speaking people on that. The sayings of the prophet also talk about that but some people don't like to follow them which is silly in my opinion as it is those sources that tell us how to pray, how to perform hajj etc. There is no mention of the word 'modesty' in the Quran. Modesty is relative. What I would've worn out clubbing in my student days isn't what I would've worn to the supermarket. Many Muslims don't pray, give 2.5% of their savings to charity, fast during Ramadan, so what? Does that mean its not an obligatory part of the religion? My closest friend is an atheist jew. As are plenty but I would never have the audacity to tell an orthodox person they don't need to cos I know loads of Jews who do eat it. Some people can't handle doing something religion asks of them. Thats fine. Nobody can be 'perfect'. But we don't reject original texts. Pre marital sex for example. We all get tempted, thats part of the test but we don't say oh you can have sex before marriage In this religion cos I said so. If you can't handle a particular religion, then either find one that suits you or abandon organised religion and just believe in god rather than change an existing religion to make it more palatable. That just confuses and misleads people.

Anyway There are differences of opinions as to what extent a woman should cover but I go with the easiest option for me which is the hair. 5 years ago i wasnt ready to cover my hair but I knew I was meant to. I never denied it being part of religion as I have always been well read when it comes to Islam. some women find it easier to cover face but I don't feel bad as Its not obviously mentioned. It is up to individuals what they can wear. Don't we live in a free democratic society? Why would someones kippa, turban or veil bother you? And even if a headscarf wasn't a part of religion, why does that matter? Honestly if it was the law of this land to not wear headscarf I would probably never leave the house or do what some Hasidic Jewish women do and wear wigs to cover hair as a way of fitting in but I wear western clothes, labels, handbags etc to fit in so people don't mistake me for an alien and so i feel part of society. So I do enough fitting in as far as I'm concerned. I shouldn't have to sell my soul. Please read the article by the Muslim woman I sent you. She echoes a lot of what Muslim women i know think, if you are interested.

you are right, I should have more faith. Its the internet Clouding my judgement rather than the idiots who say things in person. but I guess the same is happening to people who are buying all the crap written about Muslims. I have a seemingly lovely woman move in down the road who I don't know personally and I thought what if she's nice to my face but in reality writes the nasty stuff online. But I got over that quickly and have invited her round for later.

And sorry for the long post. And the dodgy typo it's been really difficult as I don't often type loads on this iPad with its silly auto write nonsense. Please feel free to verify what I've written incase you think I'm writing a load of tosh :)

Cattyness, my line about not thinking that i am a racist was left open... for consideration as it is clear that i am having 'non-pc' thoughts and reactions to the idea of filling in equal opps papers and i don't (in general) think of myself as a racist.

i don't think anyone thinks that people deserve bad treatment. the apparent appearance and confrontation with islam is still new in this country. when i was a girl, it was fair game to say what you wanted to black people in the street so i know what you mean about people's reactions to you. people still react to black people as automatically aggressive or as thieves, if you go into a shop, so i know some of what you mean/experience.
what i know/hear of islam is that it restricts people and i don't want anyone telling me what to do not in the name of any religion.

To return to the original post - why should WOMEN be more vocal on the issues of oppressed women (wherever they be)? Isn't this an issue for EVERYONE? Surely basic freedoms and human rights should be championed by all regardless of gender?

attyness

Please tell me how I'm separating myself from mainstream culture? I don't understand what you mean. Im no hermit if thats what youre implying. Is there something wrong with having a fear cos you think someone might get attacked for being a muslim (woman)

Is the fear a rational one?

I have not been physically attacked yet but know women who have had their scarves tugged at, is that acceptable?

I don't think it is.

Or should we not wear scarves?!.

Well IIRC Islam doesn't say women should wear scarves, it says that both men and women should dress modestly. The scarf is a cultural outfit, not a religious one. If it were a religious one all muslim women would wear it. If that is the case, then the scarf is a visible symbol of your 'difference'. Silly people will react to that just as they react to goths (for example).

i've lost count the number if times I've heard someone mutter "terrorist" under their breath when we're out in town but you get used to it. Do you condone that?

No, and I don't know why you'd imagine that I would.

is it not sensible for me to be prepared for the worst?

It's what you're defining as 'the worst' that I have a problem with. You're creating a mental climate of fear when there may not be a reason to have one. Perhaps I'm not in a position to judge, but in my experience people who go around expecting the worst often have it happen to them.

I don't disrespect people who don't share my views, I'm not insecure, I just have a problem with people who choose to remain ignorant about islam or anything and it is real people who suffer the consequences in their daily lives which is why I don't really dialogue with people like that as its like getting blood out of a stone as I mentioned about the man I spoke with online.

It's clear that your faith is important to you, but it isn't important to everyone, and so if people are 'choosing to remain ignorant about islam' then they're doing so because it's irrelevant to their day-to-day life. But people will be curious and that's inevitable. Those questions about your faith and the very visible symbols of it are going to come when you talk to people. Surely that's a chance to educate them?

You dont seem to acknowledge what goes on online affects the situation 'on the ground' and that stance is no better than terrorists themselves.

I've been on the internet for a very long time, and I really don't think it has as much influence as you put on it. Those commenters on websites are a tiny, tiny proportion. Their influence is insignificant.

I deserve these attacks just as much the uk deserves to get attacked.

And both sets of pointless attacks will continue until everyone gets a grip.

Seriously I have more respect for people that say "I hate Muslims" But zero for those that go the roundabout way saying "I hate Islam not Muslim" when it blatantly sends the same message anyway I think when people like you get your head out of the clouds you might take women like me seriously and before you suggest to move to Saudi, no, I've just as much right to be here as you do. I'm not an immigrant here on a work visa ffs.

Maybe I am being naive in thinking that people are better than that. In my view, they are. That's the trouble with religion in my opinion, having faith in god gets in the way of having faith in people.

I have just come back from living in Saudi arabia and must take issue with some ofyour points Laiyan.
I never saw women without an abaya, the religious police even follow white women around telling them to cover their heads. Never saw girls that were maturing into women with abayas open
Public trAnsport?? A taxi and thats it.
Women would like the CHOICE whether to drive or not.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/1253862.row_over_fullydressed_woman_in_sauna/

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/apr/20/fashion.religion

I find this entire thread ironic. Too many people concerned with women in Saudi but not interested to hearcwhat Muslim women wearing headscarves have to deal with here in the UK. Hypocrisy. Which is nothing new and sick of the double standards on here. If you want to discuss it pm. I will send you the link for those articles in abit.

Please tell me how I'm separating myself from mainstream culture? I don't understand what you mean. Im no hermit if thats what youre implying. Is there something wrong with having a fear cos you think someone might get attacked for being a muslim (woman) I have not been physically attacked yet but know women who have had their scarves tugged at, is that acceptable? Or should we not wear scarves?!. i've lost count the number if times I've heard someone mutter "terrorist" under their breath when we're out in town but you get used to it. Do you condone that? is it not sensible for me to be prepared for the worst? I don't disrespect people who don't share my views, I'm not insecure, I just have a problem with people who choose to remain ignorant about islam or anything and it is real people who suffer the consequences in their daily lives which is why I don't really dialogue with people like that as its like getting blood out of a stone as I mentioned about the man I spoke with online. You dont seem to acknowledge what goes on online affects the situation 'on the ground' and that stance is no better than terrorists themselves. I deserve these attacks just as much the uk deserves to get attacked. Seriously I have more respect for people that say "I hate Muslims" But zero for those that go the roundabout way saying "I hate Islam not Muslim" when it blatantly sends the same message anyway I think when people like you get your head out of the clouds you might take women like me seriously and before you suggest to move to Saudi, no, I've just as much right to be here as you do. I'm not an immigrant here on a work visa ffs.

Cattyness

Honestly though guys, when I read a story online related to Islam or a Muslim. The nice light hearted stories, I scroll down to the comments section and it depresses me what I read, bigotry is fine as long as youre directing it to Muslims. The comments are just vile, I would never dream of saying such things about people of other races or religion and these are comments that don't need to be censored, some serious hate going on. Seefor yourself.

Yes, that's the internet. People say stuff on the internet that they would never say to someone's face because there's no comeback. Forget about it. Every article has that. Go to the Guardian's website and the comments are all about murdering rich people because they're rich, or starting a Class War to purge the state of the selfish middle classes, or whatever. Go to the Independent and get the same.

It is this sort of stuff i read that makes me fearful of going out without a man and we're living the uk, not Saudi. And i know plenty of other who feel the same.

Well you, and your friends, are being ridiculous and your choice to separate yourself is causing the problem. Yes, there are a few morons out there. There always are.

I just shouldnt be made to feel this way in a country where my husband and i contribute higher taxes than the average family yet we are scum of the earth according to readers of well known broad sheets.

And as a non-socialist, I should be beaten to death according to the readers of other well-known broad sheets. As someone who works for a bank, my wife should be hanged, according to Guardian readers (and some MN readers). It's the internet, so why don't you drop the victimisation and get on with your life?

Some of these articles are plain lies (the woman who wore a burka in a sauna wasn't even true, she wore an Islamic swimsuit to a local pool and no complaints about it til a user made a fuss, I can give many examples but the woman in Burka in the sauna is so much more entertaining, even for me.

So entertaining you can't even give us a link to what on earth you're on about.

Anyway If you think it is justified why people feel this way or you think I'm making a fuss over nothing then good day to you x

I think you're looking for reasons to separate yourself. You seem to have a very low opinion of people who disagree with your interpretation of Islam - you called them 'sheep' in a post above. And if we disagree with you here, you've made it clear in this paragraph you won't discuss it.

This seems to me to be more about you than everyone else. Look at it this way. You're taking an active decision to separate yourself from mainstream culture. Why should you be treated the same way as everyone else when you've no respect for anyone who doesn't share your view?

Oh ok I get it. We deserve it. And I love the line "I'm not racist, but"! No, I do get your point on many things really, I suppose it's easy to forget that we are all human.

Honestly though guys, when I read a story online related to Islam or a Muslim. The nice light hearted stories, I scroll down to the comments section and it depresses me what I read, bigotry is fine as long as youre directing it to Muslims. The comments are just vile, I would never dream of saying such things about people of other races or religion and these are comments that don't need to be censored, some serious hate going on. Seefor yourself. It is this sort of stuff i read that makes me fearful of going out without a man and we're living the uk, not Saudi. And i know plenty of other who feel the same. I just shouldnt be made to feel this way in a country where my husband and i contribute higher taxes than the average family yet we are scum of the earth according to readers of well known broad sheets. Some of these articles are plain lies (the woman who wore a burka in a sauna wasn't even true, she wore an Islamic swimsuit to a local pool and no complaints about it til a user made a fuss, I can give many examples but the woman in Burka in the sauna is so much more entertaining, even for me.
Anyway If you think it is justified why people feel this way or you think I'm making a fuss over nothing then good day to you x

There was a protest a few days ago at the Olympics by the group Femen who were protesting against the abuse of women by "bloody Islamist regimes" (their quote).

I think it is extremely taboo to criticise Islam in this country. I think a lot of people are scared of either being accused of being a racist or being physically attacked.

I am always surprised how much criticism and controversy the relatively small (and albeit nasty and weird) "religion" of Scientology gets in the press, yet how many people have been killed or injured in the name of Scientology in comparison to the monotheistic religions?

people see islam as a backward looking religion, most of what we hear outlines what we cannot do. people do not want to concede anything they have in country to people who they feel will stifle their freedoms.

i have to admit that if i fill in an equal opps form, i put christian even though i do not go to church and have no intention of going so that christianity is not overshadowed by other religions. i don't think of myself as racist/religionist but.....

hatred of the jews has been around since jesus' death. the christians can blame the jews for his death rather than accepting that the message of his death is that we are all responsible for it as he died for us all (if you are christian). the apparent hatred of muslims has been accelerated from ignorance about islam 20 or 30 years ago to fear/rejection/hatred now. this is due to the fast spread of information we have these days via the media and the high profile 'actions' carried out by people i.e. 9/11, 7/7 the gulf wars, the higher profile or visibility of muslims in britain now.

ttosca

^img580.imageshack.us/i/islamoppresive.jpg/^

Mmm, but which one will be punished if she changes in to the other's outfit?

Cattyness

agree with you But can you pinpoint where the hatred for the Jews started?

Centuries ago.

No, it was a gradual process via sophisticated means. Isnt that what's happening with Muslims? Or am I paranoid? It just seems muslims are being scapegoated now.

Are they? Or is it a reasonable reaction by the majority to a religion which, because of its lack of centralising creed, allows people to use it to kill?

I can have conversations with people who don't like Islam i have many athiest friends and it just doesn't matter but there's a majority who don't like Islam and ask a question but don't wait for an answer as they're happy to carry on hating as thats more convenient. I had a man online ask me If I covered my hair cos my husband told me to and I said no, I've been uncovered most of my life and I feel better and closer to god this way plus I (personally) don't like men leering. He didn't accept that and that saddened me. France are quite proud of their veil ban. I have a non covering sister who lives there and she wants me to visit but frankly im crapping it. So forgive me if I don't see Europe as very friendly to my sort.

'Not very friendly'? By what measure? You're free to dress how you choose, eat what you choose, live how you choose and practice your religion publicly.

I agree with you But can you pinpoint where the hatred for the Jews started? No, it was a gradual process via sophisticated means. Isnt that what's happening with Muslims? Or am I paranoid? It just seems muslims are being scapegoated now. I can have conversations with people who don't like Islam i have many athiest friends and it just doesn't matter but there's a majority who don't like Islam and ask a question but don't wait for an answer as they're happy to carry on hating as thats more convenient. I had a man online ask me If I covered my hair cos my husband told me to and I said no, I've been uncovered most of my life and I feel better and closer to god this way plus I (personally) don't like men leering. He didn't accept that and that saddened me. France are quite proud of their veil ban. I have a non covering sister who lives there and she wants me to visit but frankly im crapping it. So forgive me if I don't see Europe as very friendly to my sort.

Umm - laiyan I am a bit confused. I have never been to Saudi Arabia personally but I have read a lot about it (some of it written by people from Saudi Arabia rather than Westerners) and I do know others who have travelled there for various reasons.

My understanding is that it has been necessary for women who have travelled there to have a man to accompany them from the airport and to wear abayas as soon as they got off the planes (although not with full face covering). I understand that in hotels, even those owned by international companies, women guests are not allowed to use the leisure facilities such as the swimming pool/health spa etc. unless there is a specific women's facility which is generally inferior. They are only allowed to sit in "family" areas of hotels and other public places like coffee bars, for example, and sometimes have to use separate and often inferior entrances (from what I understand from reading articles written by journalists and others who have worked in the country).

These, along with driving, are all small issues individually but certainly sugggest to me that women are not treated equally to men in Saudi and that their lives are more restricted then those of men. That, to me, is discrimination whichever way you cut it.

The recent furore over women competing in the Saudi Olympics has brought to the fore the discrimination Saudi women suffer in relation to their ability to participate in sporting activities at any level - all organised sport for children adn young people is restricted to boys/men and I gather that girls do not have PE lessons at school, leading to a potentially unhealthy female population.

The young judoka who recently competed at the Olympics has been subject to some very unpleasant criticism from her home country, at the same time as plenty of support. Everything I have read about that suggests that there are both men and women in SA who would very much like things to change but are held back by the conservatives who hold sway.

So, there may be many women who are happy with the status quo or too lazy to care, as you suggest, but it appears that there are also many who would like change, and are working to make it happen, but are held back by the strength of the restrictive laws which hold sway and the sometimes brutal treatment they may suffer in the event that they try to protest in some way.

Also, you seem to be patronising in the extreme about Saudi women - not ready for the responsibility of driving? Perhaps any deficiencies in their ability to take responsibilty, if such exist, could be attributed to the fact that women are infantilised in Saudi society, passing from the jurisdiction of their fathers to their husbands or brothers and, eventually, their sons. If women were brought up from childhood to be equal members of society, perhaps they would be more able to take responsibility.

jews not jew