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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

AV or not ?

334 replies

theoldbrigade · 20/04/2011 19:00

Thoughts please.

OP posts:
GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 19:29

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Missingfriendsandsad · 26/04/2011 19:26

So you only want a democratically fair system that does what you want?!?

GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 19:25

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Missingfriendsandsad · 26/04/2011 18:42

The idea that past elections would be the same was based on the incorrect assumption (see the work of many political scientists on this issue eg davidhughjones.blogspot.com/2011_04_01_archive.html or the work he improves on by Sanders et al) that first preferences would be the same - they won't.

In making these calculations people were only asked 'who would have been your second preference at the time' It is incorrect to assume this - I certainly won't be voting the same first preference if AV comes in and neither will most of my friends.

bemybebe · 26/04/2011 18:02

hahaha

munstersmum · 26/04/2011 17:58

No Maybe Yes

There that's my 3 votes. So if No comes last then I'll have a second vote for Maybe please. If they then fall by the wayside then count my vote for Yes please.

It's not complicated it's just a cr*p idea.

HHLimbo · 26/04/2011 17:53

Here is a by Dan Snow explaining AV

GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 17:19

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GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 16:44

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Missingfriendsandsad · 26/04/2011 16:30

Giddy, Sometimes I think you are being deliberately uninformed sounding - I was referring to the last round of the tory leadership being first past the post, because there are only two options - you said it yourself. IN your example, 50% of people have Libdem 1st r 2nd, 45% Labour 1st and 2nd, Tory 50% 1st and 2nd, UKIP 50% first and second Hmm If you treat the right as tory, UKIP and the left as Libdem/Labour This constuency leans more right than left with first and second prev count indicating a very close seat opinion-wise. Sounds like your are illustrating how effective AV is at returning an appropriate result :)

MNHQ
KatieMumsnet · 26/04/2011 15:20

Hiya

Just wanted to let you know that we've got Prezza (No campaign) and Katie Ghose (Yes campaign) coming on tomorrow to talk all things AV if you want to pop along to this thread and ask a questions

MNHQ
KatieMumsnet · 26/04/2011 15:20

Hiya

Just wanted to let you know that we've got Prezza (No campaign) and Katie Ghose (Yes campaign) coming on tomorrow to talk all things AV if you want to pop along to this thread

GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 12:59

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HHLimbo · 26/04/2011 12:50

AV is fairer because politicians need the support of most voters.
AV is fairer because you dont have to vote tactically - you can vote for who you really want, in order of preference.

So AV is a system that makes most people happier.

Giddy - everyone votes for who they really want with their 1st choice like the tory and labour leadership system
if no-one has the majority (over 50%), the candidate with least votes is eliminated like the tory and labour leadership system
Their votes then count for their 2nd choice. The other voters still count for their 1st choice. like the tory and labour leadership system
The candidate with least votes continues to be eliminated and votes reassigned until one has over 50%. like the tory and labour leadership system

Your example of the way David Cam was selected is a good example. On 1st choices, David Davis would have won (like FPTP). But most people actually didnt want him. After further rounds (like AV) they found most people prefered Dave Cam. This is exactly what AV does.

jenny60 · 26/04/2011 11:48

Allow me to reiterate that extreme right wingers have not over-run the countries where AV or a version of it has been introduced. The scenarios under discussion here are unlikely and the status quo will more likley be replicated under AV. Much as I don't think AV is a particulalry democratic system, we do have to be careful of viewing the least likely scenarios as the norm under AV. I am also Shock at the notion of retaining a voting system because of its effectiveness in keeping some people out. Why not be just work out who BNP voters are likely to be and simply disenfranchise them?

GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 09:37

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GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 09:27

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Missingfriendsandsad · 26/04/2011 09:14

You are explaining why AV is better - people can vote honestly what their preference are rather than adjusting them throughout to try as the game shifts. AV is also called 'instant runoff' because it is an instant way to follow the x-factor-type elimination. As for 'they use first past the post in the last round' so, effectively, does AV - first past the post is a great system for an either/or choice, as it was designed for, but terrible when views lie in more than two areas - see

GiddyPickle · 26/04/2011 09:00

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HHLimbo · 26/04/2011 00:18

Yes the tory system is AV, just a more expensive and long winded way of doing it.

The labour party also use AV, but then they use a system so that different peoples votes are worth a different amount - ie an MPs vote counts more than an ordinary members.

GiddyPickle · 25/04/2011 23:11

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MoreCrackThanHarlem · 25/04/2011 22:51

Yes, though I would prefer PR.

Am I right in thinking that whilst the Tories emphatically deny the benefits of AV, it is the very same system by which they elect their leader?
Apologies if this has already been addressed, not read the whole thread.

GiddyPickle · 25/04/2011 22:44

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Gooseberrybushes · 25/04/2011 22:24

Oh gosh this thread is way ahead of me.

Glad others feel the same way though.