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Politics

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AV or not ?

334 replies

theoldbrigade · 20/04/2011 19:00

Thoughts please.

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Missingfriendsandsad · 07/05/2011 05:57

Where's our childrens' hospital, nurses, police and body armour Dave?

Missingfriendsandsad · 07/05/2011 05:56

Its a mess, let's face it, its a carve up between two main parties. Keeping an election system that guarantees that is the real politician's fix.
If only the 35 - 60% of people who don't vote had their own party, none of them would be able to play.

GiddyPickle · 06/05/2011 23:04

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edam · 06/05/2011 22:57

Giddy, I didn't notice any horror or outrage last year - apart from Ian Hislop on HIGNFY. Most people were irritated or amused at the sight of befuddled politicians who didn't have a clue what they were supposed to be doing. (Not that they usually do, but they usually manage to keep up the pretence.)

GiddyPickle · 06/05/2011 13:29

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Wordwork · 06/05/2011 13:09

But it is broke, and I think that most people do feel that is broke. But they react by withdrawing -- either into apathy/nonparticipation, or into nonparliamentary politics (new internet-led forms of protest for example).

Many people defend the status quo by speaking of the 'decisiveness' of 'majoritarian' politics. But we don't have a decisive system. We have a system whose electoral politics corners parties into fighting over a few hundred thousand centrist votes influenced by a media-led focus-group issues. So we lack parties with coherent, principled manifestos.

GiddyPickle · 06/05/2011 13:02

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Wordwork · 06/05/2011 12:15

The AV campaigns (pro and anti) have surely shown that constitutional reform isn't very effectively managed as a party-political football.

In countries with a written constitution, proposals for constitutional amendment are generally treated very differently from the passing of other laws. There are procedures to take the debate to some extent outside the normal run of party politics.

But in the UK, several constitutional changes were made (e.g. fixed-term parliament) when the coalition first came into office without any procedures that would insulate such changes from gerrymandering by the parties; the decision to hold a referendum for AV rather than making that change alongside the other constitutional changes was an ad hoc political one; and most devastatingly there were no procedures in place that might have encouraged the referendum to be conducted with a wealth of neutral information -- for example there was no state-sponsored provision of neutral public-information broadcasting and so forth. We simply don't have a political culture that empowers us to reform a largely decadent political system from outside, rather than allowing its participants to conduct reform in a self-interested way from within.

I don't know how we might go about establishing that kind of external point of leverage, or what form it might take (we wouldn't for example want to give too much power to judicial constitutional oversight). I'm guessing that countries only manage to develop robust written constitutions during (or, rather, immediately after) times of very great crisis -- Germany after the war, for example. Short of very intensive crisis in the UK I think we are completely screwed. British politics is broken.

GiddyPickle · 06/05/2011 12:02

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Butkin · 06/05/2011 11:54

Voted no although dead when we voted (around 6.30pm) as nothing else to vote for in our area so I expect the turn out to be very poor.

stuffedmk · 06/05/2011 10:16

YES!!

Change has to start somewhere and if this doesn't go through then the hope of PR is all but lost.

melikalikimaka · 06/05/2011 08:24

I used my vote to say No. At least I got there instead of moaning about it.

sprogger · 06/05/2011 08:21

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midlandsmumof4 · 06/05/2011 00:45

No from me.......

WinkyWinkola · 05/05/2011 22:29

What did you read Swedes, that changed your mind?

And it's not about cancelling each other out, surely? It's about the individual's right to vote.

It's going to be a crushing no anyway. Sigh. I mean, I think there's lots of scope for reform in many areas in the UK, not least the voting system. And now it's never going to happen.

Swedes2 · 05/05/2011 21:46

Foxinsocks Grin

The YES campaign failed to get their message across. At one point I was almost convinced and then I read something else that left me reaching for the imperfect status quo. Shame as I think I was very convinceable.

DH voted NO. My 19 year old son voted YES, and we went together. So we cancelled each other out. We should have had a beer at home and not bothered.

pointydog · 05/05/2011 21:28

Why will it cost millions, chilli?

Oh yeah, the No lot's 3rd main reason for saying no was that it was a politicians' fix. There's intelligent debate. Oh, and that it will end democracy in the UK.

There are no such ludicrous claims on the Yes side.

I was completely undecided two weeks ago. Had no idea and wasn't that interested. I have just looked at the Yes and No websites for the first time. The No campaign site is almost drooling and knuckle dragging. It really is.

chillistars · 05/05/2011 21:25

No, with the economic problems this country has got at the moment it is not the time to spend millions on overhauling the election system - whether it needs it or not.

If it's not broken don't fix it - at the moment anyway. It's something for the boom instead of the bust.

pointydog · 05/05/2011 21:24

The Yes campaign had three main points.

Make Mps work harder - bit dodgy, depends on how you proceed with the argument
The other two arguments were absolutely fair enough. Sensible.

The No campaign had three main points.
Complicated - er, no
Expensive - no, does not have to be
I'll have to check the third again but it was also cack.

candleshoe · 05/05/2011 21:23

JUST VOTED NO!

foxinsocks · 05/05/2011 21:22

Lol good dan

pointydog · 05/05/2011 21:18

Yes, fox! But that's what I meant. Lacklustre was a euphemism for 'not very good' but trying to explain very patiently.

But it wasn't ridiculous junk like 'only 3 countries use it so it's shit'. 'It's too complicated innit'.

I'd go for patient, cheesy but truthful every time, I'm afraid. And Dan Snow was most helpful.

NimpyWindowmash · 05/05/2011 21:18

I thought the Yes campaign was woeful. I got a leaflet through my door explaining how AV would make MPs work harder and stop them fiddling their expenses. What rubbish.

foxinsocks · 05/05/2011 21:16

The ads pointy?

Did you see that horrendous Yes ad with the coffee house vs pub?

About 2 mins in you just wanted to SCREAM oh ffs, you're all coming round to mine if you can't decide! They couldn't organise 5 students into going for a drink!

pointydog · 05/05/2011 21:14

Politicians are the last people you should listen to re this issue.

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