Voted Tory or Libdem? Dont moan about the cuts...

jackstarb - I am trained as a scientist. I am sceptical about everything! - until someone shows me some credible evidence. I then test it from all angles and pick out any cracks. Only when I am satisfied that it is reasonably sound will I accept it as part of my world view. If someone shows me evidence to the contrary I will again examine and adapt.

How about you, how do you form your world view and your opinions?

Jackstarb - I think it is a very interesting idea. They propose an explanation for a great many ills in society, and the explanation is plausible across this variety of factors - You can see how the problems can develop from inequality.

It answers many of the things niceguy has observed - they are more healthy - because they have a better diet and excercise more and smoke less - because etc etc.

The aim is to address the root cause, and this provides a good idea of what the root cause could be.

From the Spirit Level Delusion Blog:

"John Goldthorpe, Emeritus Professor of Sociology at Oxford University, said: ?As I read through the book, I have to say that my reaction was one of increasing dismay.? ....a left-winger, Goldthorpe?s review of The Spirit Level...

"Wilkinson and Pickett [WP] have no time for nicely balanced judgements. They believe that the evidence they present shows beyond doubt that more equal societies ?do better?, and they are also confident that they have the right explanation for why this is so... Their case is by no means so securely established as they try to make out... it has been called into question by other leading figures in the field?a fact that WP might have more fully acknowledged... WP?s inadequate, one-dimensional understanding of social stratification leads to major problems in their account of how the contextual effect is produced.""

HH - The Spirit Level might chime with your ideology and personal philosophy - good for you. But that is not the same as it being undisputed 'fact'.

If you prefer facts then you'd be better off with the spirit level

The Spirit Level is do-gooding claptrap.

Relative poverty is absolutely fine. I thoroughly encourage it if it tends to lead to less absolute poverty. We should welcome the extreme rich to Britain with open arms. They bring jobs and wealth. If that increases "inequality", then that is most certainly a price worth paying.

Niceguy - I would suggest that The Spirit Level Delusion is more to your taste .

Niceguy2 - I would recommend reading 'The Spirit Level' by Wilkinson and Picket. It explains your questions very well.

There are several measures of national inequality - the household income Gini coefficient is the most used and preferred by economists.

Another method sometimes used is to measure the share of wealth held by the top 1% of the population. But, by this measure Norway and Denmark have lower equality than the US.

It is household income HHLimbo, which is usual with such data I believe.

Its very interesting that the USA chose to measure inequality by family income.

What an odd and difficult thing to measure. Did they just count everyone with the same surname as the same family?

Or perhaps measuring inequality between individuals shows the USA in a bad light, and they didnt like that chart?

Yes, it does look that way jackstarb... the UK scored 34 in 2005 (on CIA's Gini Index) and again in 2008 (according to the ONS) whilst Japan scored 37.

Of course, things might have changed since then but I can't find any more recent figures.

It is interesting to see facts rather than anecdote and media spin I think.

Interesting link earthworm. So Japan is actually has less income equality than the UK. So Niceguy could be right - Japanese relative health is due to diet and exercise.

earthworm

Thanks for the link.

If Osbourn hit his targets we may catch up with Brazil

here is the CIA's Gini Index; the index measures the degree of inequality in the distribution of family income in a country.

A score of 0 would be perfect equality, and a score of 100 would be perfect inequality.

I very much doubt that Japanese societies are more healthy as a result of their wage equality and tax system.

You will probably find that it's down to diet & exercise. Both countries have much better diets than we do. Both have less smokers. Exercise? Well I'm not sure about the Japanese but it's unusual to see a fat Japanese person so guess they're doing something right. Ditto with Scandinavian countries. One of the things I love over there is the abundance of people cycling places instead of driving so I guess they are getting more exercise too. Having spent time over there, there are a few fat people but by and large the UK have way more lardy arses than anywhere else bar our US friends.

Japan has one of the highest levels of income equality, and one of the healthiest societies, with low unemployment (until recent events at least).
They achieve this through higher wage equality.

Scandinavian countries also have high levels of income equality, and are some of the healthiest societies - they achieve this through redistributive taxes.

These are two very systems, both of which achieve excellent outcomes. With our society, redistributive taxes are the easiest way to achieve greater prosperity.

Jackstarb - your comment only highlights your ignorance.

moondog - now that Finland appear to have voted into power an anti-immigration 'family values' UKIP type party - the progressives need to scrabble around for an alternate socialist nirvana to bang on about .

' one of the highest levels of equality in the world.'

Really? How so?

I have to disagree with the OP - It is absolutely essential that Tory and Lib dem voters complain. They should complain loudly and write to their MPs, put pressure on them to govern for the people not just the mega rich.

They should put pressure on their MPs to properly support people and the economy, and make our society FAIR and PROSPEROUS.

I am always surprised at the Tory enthusiasm for unemployment. They want to pay people to do nothing, when they could pay people to do something. Doesnt that seem absolutely perverse?

It is a fact of life that fairer societies are more prosperous. Take Japan for example. Their economy flatlined for decades, and the way they got out of it and turned into the powerhouse they are today is by ensuring one of the highest levels of equality in the world.

Thanks Jackstarb..my muddled thinking but yes it was the 2010 KPMG study that I had in mind.

Newwave - yes, it could work if we had a government that was willing to close the 'loopholes' but I wouldn't want to live in a country where you weren't allowed to emigrate, take early retirement, cut your working hours or increase your pension contributions. Or would there be different legislation especially for rich people? I wonder how many companies would be relocating to the UK if their senior managers were being taxed at, say, 70%?

I also want a fair society but the means to that end is debatable.

The top rate doesn't work, I don't care how many populist examples you trot out.

I could work if any government had the will to close all the loopholes and make the penalty for evasion very harsh indeed but no government does because they want to join the gravy train at a later date. Blair is a prime example but there are many others. Defence secretaries now working for the murder industry and Health ministers in private medical companies.

Ttosca - I think earthworm was referring to a KPMG study which put the UK both 4th in the EU and 4th in the world (as EU tax rates tend to be high).

Mablemurple - our top rate of tax is one of the highest in the EU, with only three countries (out of 86) having a higher top rate.

There aren't 86 countries in the EU. There are 27.

earthworm.

I am neither a socialist nor a Labour party supporter, I have always voted LD except for 1997.

I believe in a fair society where all can flourish not in a Tory one where the devil can take the hindmost.

I detest the old school tie network and our class ridden society where who you know is more important that what type of person you are.

Do you truly believe Osbourn or Cameron would be where they are now if they had been born on a council estate in Burnley.

A prime example of the Tory mindset comes from Westminster council.

The want to cut down the numbers of homeless/rough sleepers so instead of providing/building low cost social housing for them instead they want to outlaw Salvation Army and other charities soup runs and similiar projects so as to "starve" them out of Westminster. Maybe they should move them into asbestos ridden buildings, no maybe not, they have been caught doing that before.

I know my utopian society have never and will never exist but the Tory dystopia does not have to be the alternative.