Them and us - why posh Tories who claim to care about social mobility haven't got a clue

I didn't say you were blaming the children. How many times?

The right is more libertarian. We should be fighting to ensure people whose views we disagree with have a right to expound them.

No one wants the children of bad parents to suffer. It's how you help those children which counts. However there is nothing to suggest people are less happy with less money once their basic needs are met so the suggestion everyone can be a winner at some top of the tree all As and all in social class 1 is not feasible. Some will move up and on the way others must fall back - the mobility is two way.

goose

Newwave: it's you who's being utterly, utterly obtuse. I mean, beyond obtuse.

I am not accusing you of blaming the children, I'm accusing you of condemning them to failure because of the parents' behaviour.

ie leaving them to a life of failure by blaming the parents rather than demanding that state education lift them up despite their parents' behaviour.

Really, it's difficult to put it more clearly. Best not to FFS when you really are totally and completely in the wrong and don't understand.

Obviously it is YOU that is in the wrong, nowhere was I blaming the children for the shortcomings of their parents neither was I advocating that they should be left to fail by the actions (or non actions) of their parents, in those circumstances the school needs to help these children (which will of course be helped by the Tory cuts)

I also suggest you don't complain about being called obtuse unless you want your own post reported

I never would complain about anything on here, I will leave it to the right wingers on here to do the complaining and the censoring, quattro being a fine example of the thought police.

Yes, it's very bad - unless you want to start comparing the UK with developing nations and dictatorships.

Perhaps we should compare our public transport system the same way - Hey! It's better than Zimbabwe!

But much better than on much of the planet so it's certainly not terribly bad.

We have reasonably good social mobility in this country compared to many.

False.

OECD: UK has worse social mobility record than other developed countries

The chances of a child from a poor family enjoying higher wages and better education than their parents is lower in Britain than in other western countries, the OECD says

Children from poor families in Britain have a greater chance of struggling on low incomes than their counterparts in the west's other rich countries, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) said today.

Highlighting the UK's lack of social mobility, the Paris-based thinktank said the chances of a young person from a less well-off family enjoying higher wages or getting a higher level of education than their parents was "relatively low".

www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility

aliceliddell I think the old system is better because people tend not to get more intelligent, but exams can get easier.

AFAIK many professional bodies (ICAEW being one) still mark exams on this basis.

Yes, although there is nothing to stop a university asking to see your individual precise marks. I don't know why they don't.

To throw a shiny new spanner into the works: I suspect I was unusual in not knowing GCSE's and A levels are now assessed on a different scale to when some of us did them . So years ago, the top 10% got A, next 10% B etc. Nowadays, they are marked against criteria, so if a candidate answers all correctly, s/he will get an A no matter what all the other candidates get. So it's now theoretically possible for all candidates t get A where it wasn't possible before.

Without doubt many private schools are better than state.

We have reasonably good social mobility in this country compared to many.

Most parents of all income groups try to do their best for their children and that's only natural - that might be getting your son a job on the shop floor at 16 where his father works or helping in u niversity holidays get work experience and even in relatively low paid fields like journalism which seem to depend more on connections than the professions getting them unpaid internships. I don't think Labour or the Coaltion are any better or worse than anyone else at that.

heh heh

Amen.

The Lord blesseth the topsy turvy for their heads be up their arse & they may never see the light.

And up shalleth be down, and in shalleth be out, and topsy shalleth be turvy, for ever and ever, Amen.

It will goose, for then they will be poor awfuls, thus disadvantaged & given all the glittering prizes they justly deserve for coming for a lowly household.

& damn them if they protest they should be judged on merit, for they know not what they say, for they have not been educated to a level by which they may engage in debate.

But God bless the meek, for they shall be patronised into a university education, whether they can afford £9,000 a year or not.

Perhaps I'll just shoot myself right here and now. That'll help poor children fer sure.

Ahh - the old 'the teachers work so hard' defense.

They do.

And some of them even believe in educating children.

However, many of them are 'confused' with current dogma.

& Yes OP, I haven't read the whole thread but those sharp elbowed middle classes are repugnant in the way they use their connections to advance their children's lives.

They should ship them out to the nearest salt mine.

Really. The bastards.

"The deep distrust of State education is largely promoted by those who haven't been near a State school for some time"

You must be joking -- why do you think I go without just about bloody everything so my children can go private?

I'm sure the teachers do work hard. I know a lot of teachers. I don't think "teachers not working hard" is a complaint that's been made here.

you can think that all you like, alice (re: not being near a state school for some time) - I would hazard a guess that I have spent a fair bit longer then most posters on this thread deciphering the state education, talking it through wiht both teachers and education officials, and discussing exactly how (either of) my dd might fit in...

over the last 4 years, I have spent more time than I care to remember deliberating over school placement - a decision never to be entered into lightly, imo, and each of the schools that have either been considered for or actually attended by dd1 has been thoroughly researched and trialled extensively.

the general state of State education in this country leaves me cold.

Oooh! Ladies! Please!
The deep distrust of State education is largely promoted by those who haven't been near a State school for some time, I think. I my 6mths attending school with anxious SN dd, I was surprised at the sheer hard graft of the teachers, most of whom didn't see the inside of the staff room all day. A huge amount of help was given by Teaching Assistants and the attached Sure Start Centre.

I also suggest you don't complain about being called obtuse unless you want your own post reported.

Newwave: it's you who's being utterly, utterly obtuse. I mean, beyond obtuse.

I am not accusing you of blaming the children, I'm accusing you of condemning them to failure because of the parents' behaviour.

ie leaving them to a life of failure by blaming the parents rather than demanding that state education lift them up despite their parents' behaviour.

Really, it's difficult to put it more clearly. Best not to FFS when you really are totally and completely in the wrong and don't understand.

It's not the childrens fault new wave but you are raging against quite a machine, it's understandable those who aren't being paid to deal with the situation lose patience pretty quick and just want to buy their distance via housing or school.

The point is silverfrog that is exactly my experience for NT children too, we do it this way and you are wrong if you don't get it it and we'll do nothing to help but just you dare as a parent suggest an alternative or try and give your child a head start, we will take it out on your child by then refusing to teach them anything at all.