Is there such a thing as "severe poverty" in the UK?

I did once find an even better, more conicse definition of it that really did encompass everything - but I can't find it

"Fundamentally, poverty is a denial of choices and opportunities, a violation of human dignity. It means lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society. It means not having enough to feed and clothe a family, not having a school or clinic to go to, not having the land on which to grow one?s food or a job to earn one?s living, not having access to credit. It means insecurity, powerlessness and exclusion of individuals, households and communities. It means susceptibility to violence, and it often implies living in marginal or fragile environments, without access to clean water or sanitation.
?United Nations"

"Poverty is pronounced deprivation in well-being, and comprises many dimensions. It includes low incomes and the inability to acquire the basic goods and services necessary for survival with dignity. Poverty also encompasses low levels of health and education, poor access to clean water and sanitation, inadequate physical security, lack of voice, and insufficient capacity and opportunity to better one?s life.
?World Bank"

"overty is a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services. It includes a lack of income and productive resources to ensure sustainable livelihoods; hunger and malnutrition; ill health; limited or lack of access to education and other basic services; increased morbidity and mortality from illness; homelessness and inadequate housing; unsafe environments and social discrimination and exclusion. It is also characterized by lack of participation in decision making and in civil, social and cultural life. It occurs in all countries: as mass poverty in many developing countries, pockets of poverty amid wealth in developed countries, loss of livelihoods as a result of economic recession, sudden poverty as a result of disaster or conflict, the poverty of low-wage workers, and the utter destitution of people who fall outside family support systems, social institutions and safety nets.
? World Summit on Social Development"

I'd say there are elements mentioned in all 3 of those definitions well and truly in play in the UK

Well, I've lived (and still have friends and (ex) family living there) in a poor country. I have also witnessed absolute poverty first hand, however I can not feel comfortable with the idea that those living in relative poverty in the UK should thank their lucky stars. It just doesn't work that way.

When I met exH he had only just found a job after having lived in absolute poverty for quite some time due to the death of his mother. We then also lived in pretty dire straits (our income din't even cover the rent let alone anything else and there were no benefits to help us out) before we moved (back for me) to the UK. Many of exH's family live poverty, not absolute poverty in that countries terms, but certainly compard to poverty in the UK it would be absolute.

However, (thankfully!) he and a few of his other family that have moved to the UK don't have the atitude that "well it's not as bad for poor people here as it is back home so they should think themselves lucky" - it just doesn't work that way - otherwise where does it end?

Should the distant relative we visited back in 2006, solely reliant on the generosity of the rest of the family to survive, living in her very rickety, and in desperate need of repairs (and a bath that could be used too), with holes in her shoes, and only one pair of battered old shoes thank her lucky stars that at least she has running water in her house, and a roof over her head - as there are others in her country and around the world even more worse off than her??

When I think of severe poverty I do think of children living in slums with barely enough to eat.

Perhaps in this country, with the benefits system, it is more emotional poverty than financial? Although there are some shocking living standards in some areas we have sanitary conditions to other countries. Anyway, I think some people cannot cope with life and unfortunately the children are brought up in a neglectful and poisonous atmosphere - to be honest that doesn't take into count the wealth of the parent but it does seem to occur more often in households where benefits have destroyed any ambition.

I am leaving this thread now, and probably keeping off all future threads.

I invite posters who do not take a global view, and are not prepared to be grateful that in UK we are the lucky ones, to look back at some of the Red Nose Week threads or International Women's Day threads.

To think about places where there is no clean water, no food, no schools, no roof over your head at all; no safety even to sleep because the local warlords are rounding up children and forcing them into the militia. Think about no hospitals, and childbirth being a common cause of death. Think about watching your child die of malaria because a £1 net is way beyond your means and dreams. To think about slavery and people trafficking, enforced prostitution and selling one child in the hope you can meet the needs of the rest.

Then please, if you would, think about why ill-defined "severe" poverty might not be a welcome term. Absolute poverty, as internationally defined does not exist in UK. There are millions who would thinks all there dreams had come at once should they have the chance to come to even the shittiest conditions here.

As I posted above, I do not see the ills of relative deprivation as insignificant in any way and agree fully there effects can be severe.

I can never, through personal working experience, equate the conditions in UK with absolute poverty.

I can however see this is an isolated and unpopular on MN, and bow out.

well said TheJollyPirate !

Yes HappyMummy really IS that thick - so are some others here sadly. Domestic violence leaving people with nothing anyone?

Poverty is relative (look it up HappyMummy - you might learn something love) as a result there are those who will lose out in life thanks to what they experience when born. I have seen families living in awful accommodation - mold up all the walls etc because even when working they cannot afford to move out into the private sector and there is a lack of social housing to move them into. Children who breathe in the mold spores thereby building up a lifetime of respiratory illness.... and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I'd like to challenge some of the dimwits on here to try living on benefits - it isn't simple (been there when DH was made redundant) and life of luxury it definitely is NOT.

Poverty doesn't exist? Don't make me laugh.

There are thousands of people living in the UK who cannot get a job and cannot claim benefits.

So yes, there is absolute poverty in the UK.

Not managing your money properly does result in severe poverty for some children.
I visit families who have no beds and just sleep on blankets on the floor, who do not have enough food to eat etc.

Also, as someone else said, debt can be racked up quickly at the end of a relationship, during a period of not being able to work etc and if it is through an unreputable company then they will take large amounts of money even if the person is working and so there is very little/if any left for heating/food etc but they are two scared to not pay it and so prioritise it first.

"Society only has itself to blame, we've allowed people to have children without even thinking of how they will support them "

are you really that thick?

both me and my partner were working well paid jobs when we decided to have our children. whilst on mat leave with our 2nd we made the decision for me to leave work and become a registered Cmer whilst my partner supported us financially. then he left. and voila! all of a sudden i was a single unemployed parent. believe me if i had predicted that happening and the fact that i would be scraping by on benefits i would not have given up my secure job.

think on before you make ridiculous statements like that. and dont even try and be as patronising as to come back and say "obviously i don't mean cases like yours, i mean those that choose to live off benefits"

agree totally with edam.

yeah, I read your post. Don't see why a homeless family, or disabled person who faces losing their mobility allowance should thank their lucky stars, though.

Edam: could I suggest you re-read my post? Especially the third tiret.

meditrina - that's rather like telling someone with diabetes that they should be grateful they don't have cancer. There is ALWAYS someone worse off than you. Doesn't mean your problems aren't real.

And poverty in other countries is pretty much irrelevant to a debate about poverty in our country anyway. We are talking about our society and people living in our society and have to pay UK prices for food and UK prices for transport and UK prices for housing and everything else.

We are all very lucky we don't live in Libya, or Darfur, or hundreds of other countries where life is pretty shit. Doesn't mean if you lost your job tomorrow that wouldn't be a problem.

Lego: It's not insecurity. I've worked where there is absolute poverty and the UK situation doesn't even begin to compare.

I dislike the terminogy which tends to conflate the two, and "severe" poverty to me to do this.

I have never said, however, that the effects of relative deprivation are insignificant in any way, and would agree that the effects can be severe.

But poverty is a global problem, and we should thank our lucky stars that we are in an affluent country that is not faced with the awfulness of absolute poverty.

How come I got deleted for saying twat?

Hehehe

Well it needed to be said didn't it? Come on tell me it didn't need to be said...you can't can you

\link{http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/myspace-graphics/funny-pictures/stop-bein-a-cunt.jpg\haha} -

I dread to think TSC - I'm trying not to think about that too much what with DS3 heading off to school in September, it's scary shit looking at the jobs sectins/ads round these parts. There are more now than there were last year - there's about 3 pages on the job centre wesite for example. But a hell of a lot of them are only a couple of hours a week, or required specific skills/qualificatins. There's not an awful lot for those just looking to get into work. I've already told my BF that if she wants to change jobs from her current one she'd better do it now before I start applying properly in a few months time so I'm not fighting her for them

Good God their are some cunts on MN these days!

That's true elliott - Asylum seekers get £38 a week (adult rate) rather than the full £64.50 that those on "normal" benefits get and can't work.

Plus those on many visa who have moved here to work, maybe lost their josb, and have had to take something paying much less. They're not allowed to claim anything at all either.