All-round Budget thread

Yes we could start by cutting MPs expenses, instead of increasing them to the tune of 2.5k per child.

We can certanily have a lot more cuts. All that money wasted on overseas development and plenty else besides.

Gordon Brown did pay back the last of the WWII debt we owed and I remember fondly the days when the then Mrs Thatcher was paying back the national debt.

If we can get Britain competing again then we might get the economy moving. I'm not sure if the lower corporation tax and change in rules on overseas earnings will mean companies like WPP who moved to Ireland will move back but we'll see. What I am sure business wants most is certainty and many many fewer changes in tax law and policy.

But we're not borrowing from our dodgy cousins are we? We're still bailing out the rest of the neighbourhood to the tune of billions.

There is money, how the tories choose to spend it is, of course, based upon their ideology.

Not a lot has changed. There is still a finite pot of money and tough decisions to be made, but let's not pretend that the government have no choice.

cakeretention You wrote: I wish you well on the march. But wasn't it the last government that brought in ESA and the ATOS checks?

What the hell has the last government (yawn) got to do with the March today? Who's protesting the savage cuts aren't all automatically supporters of the last government (yawn). New Labour is Tory lite. Yeah? Goddit? They're all birds of a feather lining the same nests. New Labour would have carried out the same cuts just SLOWER. Labour are not in any way leftwing. Labour are still nominally tied to the trade unions but that is just that: nominal.

It wasn't the nasty Tories who got rid of the 10% tax band, as I recall.

But it was the nasty tories who got rid of childbenefit and tax credits for the better off and introduced the pupil premium for poor kids.

They sho are making the rich richer and the poor poorer, hey!

I read the immigrant comment as suggesting that if hard working non Brits can find work then why can't hard working Brits? Suggestion being maybe they don't want those jobs ? Just my interpretation.

ttosca - are you actually insane? Are you seriously suggesting that the US isn't making tough cuts? Do you know anything about the benefit system/unemployment in the US?

Before you all start yelling "nasty idealogy-based Tories" , why don't you actually look at some numbers and start asking why the debt-interest payment is now nearly as much as is being spent on the NHS. Oh... and that's at a low interest rate which is going to be reset. And that's the interest on the current debt - we're not even looking at the deficit yet.

In layman's terms, you are spending nearly as much on your creditcard interest as you do on the food budget and Barclaycard just sent a letter saying your APR is going from 9% to 29%. Still, at least your Louis Vuitton is pretty. You're going to have to borrow a tenner from your dodgy cousin though because you can't pay the bills.

aliceliddell: I wish you well on the march. But wasn't it the last government that brought in ESA and the ATOS checks? I didn't realise that they were introduced by Cameron and Clegg?

a) See my previous answer. Just because everyone is borrowing and up to their eyeballs in debt, doesn't mean we should be. The US are screwed. They just don't realise it yet. Just wait. When the day dawns on them that they cannot carry on with their national debt either and finally make the cuts, the knock on effects I think will cause another recession.

b) After WW2, the UK was screwed. Understandably so. After all, there was a huge war. That debt came down but for the last 30 years or so, we've happily lived in debt on the understanding that economic growth would allow us to pay off the debt and we were merely "investing". Except that growth was never enough, since we just spent more each time we grew. Just in the same way each year I might take out a loan because I expect a payrise the next year.

c) That's your opinion. You may be right, you may be wrong. Plenty of "economists" also think the cuts have been absolutely necessary.

d) There are only two ways to reduce a deficit. Raise taxes, reduce spending. The current coalition are doing both. I'd be interested to see where you pluck the £120billion for tax evasion/avoidance from. And that's before considering the likes of HSBC would relocate taking ALL their tax income with them. It does neatly mean they are no longer avoiding tax.......

e) Actually on this one I agree with you. Not 100% sure of your figures but I agree that in the current climate, it's something we should scrap.

Yes I read your post but you fail to take into account the difference between the structural budget deficit and the national debt. They are not the same thing.

Jesus Christ, huddspur - did you actually read anything I wrote in my post? Anything at all?

We need to make cuts to reduce the structural budget deficit which amounts to about to around 11% of GDP.

Cuts and recycling are the new heavenly virtues, as we appear to have got rid of religion.

So please explain to me, guys, why 'cuts are necessary', given the things I pointed out many many times on this thread:

a) Our debt/GDP ratio is better (lower) than many other G8 countries, including the US, German and Japan. The US is not enacting huge cuts in public spending. Their economy is moving along better than ours.

b) Our debt (in the UK) has been higher for most of the 20th Century. During it's peak, just after WWII, we created the NHS and the welfare state.

c) Cuts - especially such drastic cuts - are more likely to harm the economy than help it by putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work, increasing welfare costs, and reducing consumer demand. Conversely, many economists agree that you can't cut your way out of a recession, you need to spend your way out.

d) There are many, many ways of reducing the deficit (annual sum added to the debt) without cuts. I mentioned many of them on this thread several times. Tax evasion and avoidance is said to total about £120 billion. The 'Robin Hood' tax of 0.05% on speculative financial transactions could raise anywhere from £20 to £40 billion per year for the UK annually - this alone would halve the deficit in three years.

e) Trident will cost £3 Billion per year to renew until completion and is a complete waste of money. Scrap it.

f) More suggestions and alternatives to cuts:

www.leftfutures.org/2010/06/an-alternative-to-cuts/

www.pcs.org.uk/en/campaigns/campaign-resources/there-is-an-alternative-the-case-against-cuts-in-public-spending.cfm

Niceguy2

That is such a ridiculous argument. In layman's terms you are essentially saying "There's plenty of money. Look, all my mates are all in more debt than I am!"

It's not a ridiculous argument, because these countries aren't all enacting such drastic cuts to public spending. As I showed earlier, the amount of debt owed by the UK, as a percentage of GDP, has actually be greater for most of the 20th Century. After WWII, it was it's highest ever, peaking at over 200%. The country was actually bankrupt - yet it is during this time that the welfare state and the NHS were created.

These cuts are ideological in nature and part of the neo-liberal agenda to reshape Western economies into smaller-state, free-market, highly privitised economies. You're right that New Labour probably wouldn't have acted differently. They stopped sticking up for the average working person when they became 'New Labour'.

Niceguy, we all know that a Labour government would've had to make cuts, it's the speed, level and and nature of the the cuts that they disagree on.

I also cannot imagine we would have heard cheering from the labour back benches as those cuts were announced.

Good on you Alice.

Alice. Hope you enjoy the march and don't get kettled. Seriously. It's your right to protest and I wish you every luck.

But just bear in mind that had (heaven forbid) Labour had won the last election, they'd have made pretty much the same level of cuts. You may think this is nasty Tories cutting benefits to the poor. But actually the work had started albeit very slowly under Labour. The transfer of people from IB to ESA was a Labour policy. The rules to compel lone parents to work when their child was school age, another Labour policy.

If you read around, even on MN, the 1% Barclays tax thing was widely regarded as a incredibly sloppy piece of journalism. 1% was worked out using some very dodgy accounting and based on earnings made during Labour's reign which made them criticising it all the more laughable!

My point is that whilst it's easy to throw scorn on the "nasty Tories", just bear in mind that economic realities mean that it didn't matter if they or Labour were in charge. We'd still be here in practically the same boat. It would just be a different colour.

There is plenty of money. Our debt to GDP ratio is much lower than other G8 countries, including Japan, Italy, and the United States.

That is such a ridiculous argument. In layman's terms you are essentially saying "There's plenty of money. Look, all my mates are all in more debt than I am!"

Well so what? Do you want to spend like them until they're bankrupt first? Or do you want to look after your own finances in a sustainable manner?

Prinnie

No, talking about immigration policy or immigrants doesn't make one a racist or bigot, but using immigrants (along with welfare recipients, pensioners, and the poor) as a scapegoat for your imaginary ills because of what you read in the Daily Mail most certainly does.

I don't think debating why there is so much employment done by immigrants when we have 2.5 million unemployed necessarily makes one bigoted - in fact I think a lot of our problems come from even discussing or questioning things like this is just a taboo and people shout others down as 'bigoted or racist' too soon.

glasnot

Will do. Thanks!

cakeretention (and others): I can't walk/garden/cook/go shopping/get on a coach/train/bus unaided, etc etc etc. I'm still going on that bloody march tomorrow though, because my opinion of Clegg/Cameron and their supporters is completely unaffected by my disability. They're Tories; this is what they do. Had you considered going after Philip Green who salts it all away in Monaco to avoid tax, or Barclays bank which paid 1% tax last year? or are you sticking with attacking the fraudulent claimants? They are an easier target after all. Don't worry, I and the other scrounging crips are quite happy to get humiliated by privateers Atos to ensure you're not wasting your money. This kind of witch hunting affects every single disabled person in the country. Hope you enjoy spending the cash you save as much as we enjoy getting it wrung out of us. Loving your work, sister.

ttosca bracket your links!! Check down below how to if you dunno.

The money for the bombing of Libya has come out of the treasury's contigency reserves

'has the money for the bombing of libya come from a credit card or have we stuck Wales in hock...how have we afforded all those bombs and stuff...maybe it's come from the foreign aid budget or something.'

We already have the military hardware like the Storm Shadows and Tomahawks, and the submarines and Tornadoes. We are paying for the fuel and the deployment and eventually the replacement of the missiles.

^Bollox.

Thousands upon thousands of Eastern Europeans and other immigrants have managed to find jobs in recent years. I can't remember the last time I was served food or drinks by a non immigrant ."

Oh, now immigrants are the problem, eh? For god's sake, Nigella. Seriously. Do you write for the Daily Mail? You are a serious nasty, bigoted and spiteful little sh*t.

"Not enough jobs are being created to match the expanding work force and the public sector cull has barely started," said Jonathan Loynes, chief European economist at Capital Economics.

www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/03/16/britain-unemployment.html

*Shadow work and pensions secretary Liam Byrne said this was a sign that the government could not rely on the private sector to create jobs.

"There are still five people chasing every single job and in about a hundred constituencies, 10 people are chasing every job," he told BBC News.*

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12477563

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Nothing but hot air from you.