webchat with "loons, fruitcakes and racists"

I don't agree. I believe in democracy but I do not believe that the average British citizen does not have the depth of understanding necessary to vote on some legislation.

Not all, but the more complex laws.

Especially with papers such as the Daily Mail exerting huge influence on the political mindset of the population.

Goodnight complimentary.

complimentary is right, it is about democracy. Arthur Scargill is against the EU because of the democratic deficit. It was the Tory, Ted Heath, who wanted us to join the EU, and many Labour politicians campaigned against it. I think even now Tony Benn is against it (I'm not sure), due to the fact that it is undemocractic. Democracy and freedom are more important than money. One day our freedom may be eroded, then it will be too late.

Yes Claig real democracy. Unfortunately we don't have it here, and never will while we are part of the EU. Like all the other member states we will have our sovereignty denied by faceless Brussels bureaucrats.

The EU is deeply unpopular with British people, as it's not democratic. Britain should run it's own affairs, not Brussels.

Goodnight!

They award themselves bonuses and meanwhile public sector workers experience cuts. Who voted for that?

Of course, the other thing is that our representatives are often influenced by big money lobby groups. Stephen Byers said that he was "a cab for hire". Sometimes the will and interests of the people are ignored, because powerful business interests get their way. All of us are now paying the price of bailing the banks out. We have no say in it at all.

That is the key issue. I am a democrat, I believe in real democracy, in proportional representation and referenda. I believe the people should decide, not their "representatives", who can decide that they know best. I believe that when the Irish perople voted "no" to teh Lisbon Treaty, their will should have been accepted. i don't think that their representatives should make them vote again until they get it right.

In real democracy, there will be things that we don't agree with, but they will be the view of the majority. I didn't like the fact that Scotland might have had the ability to stop the English from getting rid of a Labour government, but that is tough, that is democracy as we have it.

are too important, not is.

I don't know what his side issues are. I don't know if referenda are part of his policies. I am sure he has lots of policies that are not to my liking, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that he does have a point about his major policy, which is about national sovereignty and the ability of parliament to make its own laws, whatever those laws are, and whether we like them or not.

Ah, but I don't really believe that we should trust every decision to the public.

We vote representatives into power so that they can make the decisions in our stead.

Some pieces of legislation is too important to leave the decision to people who have no idea of the wider implication of the laws that they are voting on.

Any Swiss citizen can introduce a law, from minor matters to major changes in the constitution.

If he wants the real will of the people - why are his policies so dedicated to micro-managing side issues - like what music Radio 4 plays or what British designers make.

if it is really about the will of the people, then surely his manifesto should just be "we will referendum everything - up to you guys"

Yes, but that is democracy, it is the real will of the people, not the will of the planners. You either trust the people or you don't. You either want real democracy or rule by politicians who say they represent the public, but ignore the wishes of the public and award themselves expenses out of the public's purse.

Hmm. He should try living here to see if he still likes the direct democracy. It makes everything go at a snails pace, and there is always the danger that extreme policies are pushed through into law. See the banning of the Mosques last year - which was done on a campaign of misinformation and scare tactics.

Or the Ivan the Rapist campaign that was passed to ensure that foreign born convicted criminals are automatically deported, not just for rape or murder, but for drug dealing and social security abuse.

Yes but Farage sid that he admired Switzerland because it was a rich country and becuse its people had true democracy and could have referenda on whatever subject they wanted. I think for UKIP it really comes down to freedom, democracy, national sovereignty and national independence. Money is a secondary issue, they are not prepared to sacrifice sovereignty for silver.

Strange, isn't it, how they admire Switzerland and Norway.

Switzerland's standard of living is high, but they have even more interference in the agricultural industry than the EU. The markets are highly regulated. They have different standards of kitchen appliances, for instance, purely to ensure that Swiss buy Swiss products. Even the plugs are completely different to the EU plugs. It is a right PITA.

I have mentioned the cost of living in Switzerland before - the house prices [faints] - £3500 for a 3 bed house a month. £20 for 4 chicken breasts. £1 for a litre of milk.

We have to pay import taxes on goods from outwith CH. It is highly regulated. Totally at odds with the policies of UKIP.

I think they bring Norway up because the issue of overriding importance for eurosceptics is national sovereignty and democractic control of one's own country with the ability of parliament to make its own laws. Money and cost is not their major concern, as Farage said when he said that his opposition to the EU was not due to cost but due to democracy.

One thing that does me is why UKIP-pers and Euroskeptics love Norway so much. A country with a 28% basic and 54% higher rate of income tax. A country with 24% VAT. A country where food & other living costs are hugely expensive. A country with the highest level of maternity pay in the world.

I love Norway very much (and hope to visit again next time I remortgage ) and admire its welfare state - I just wonder why UKIP people are so fond as it is the complete opposite of their values (low taxation, low regulation).

Yes georgeorwell (glasnost) joined around 23rd feb?
Just in time to slander Farage. Yea right!

SM
I was searching for the origins of that rumour earlier. Farage said it was from Roman Herzog, but I found no evidence of where that figure was from.

huddspur
Exactly my thoughts.

I live in Geneva and have heard stories about the UN that would make your hair curl. There is so much waste. I imagine that those living in Brussels and Strassburg could say the same.

I still believe in the EU, and hope that there is the will and the determination sometime to push through reforms.

Insight
The problem is, there are always going to be initiatives and laws that are unpopular with the voters. If Kohl had waited until he had public opinion behind him, the former East Germany would still be 40 years behind the West. The extremely unpopular Solidaritätszuschlag was used to rebuild the DDR. No one would have voted for it. But it was necessary.

uk laws arent 75% eu.the higher figures of 84%, 75% and even 50% claimed by the likes of hannan, farage and cameron are based on miscalculations, misunderstandings, or sources unknown, and often derive from parts of the EU other than just the UK ? and so with no hard evidence to support them must be dismissed as either too high or inapplicable to the uk situation.

Yes. I think you are georgeorwell.

glasnost. When did you join MN? are you really Georgeorwell?