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Original poster

THE ESSENCE OF CAPITALISM

67 replies

ivanhoe · 28/12/2010 14:05

The essence of capitalism is aiding and abetting the wealthy to accumulate more and more capital (wealth).

This is justified by the rationalization that living in a free society we all have the opportunity to amass our own fortunes.

The reality is that as the wealthy become progressively more and more wealthy (the very nature of capitalism).

They use their wealth to squeeze the working class that provides their labor and so insure their own dominance at the top of the heap.

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AbsofCroissant · 29/12/2010 15:07

Then give an example of a way in which business can act without any state intervention, whatsoever.

Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 15:00

////Nope, that is patently untrue/////

Yep, it is patently very true.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 14:58

/////There are many self-made men out there who have come from humble backgrounds.

Rather than whining about it, you might like to emulate them.//////

Okay, please explain to this site how you would emulate them ?, you be the teacher here.

But to make things hard, pretend through no fault of your owm you are starting off on the streets, without a job, or a home, and you cannot get welfare because you dont have a permenant address, so precisely what is "your" next move ?

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 14:54

/////ivanhoe & itsawonderful - In your opinion, why did communist Soviet countries failed?//////

Errrrr, I prefere to know why Britain has failed ???????

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Ewe · 29/12/2010 14:52

Oh and communism and socialism aren't the same thing. As far as I am aware, we only have state-communism to look at as a real example which is fine but is not comparing capitalism/socialism.

Ewe · 29/12/2010 14:48

We aren't a free market as state implemented minimum wage which means supply/demand will never quite work as it is meant to - which you could see as good or bad, or a bit of both.

We also have tax credits which keep salaries artificially low as the state tops up income so businesses don't have to.

Hard work is all well and good but plenty of people will have worked as hard/harder than Bill Gates and not be anywhere near as successful. It is never as simple as work hard enough and you will be rich and successful. You need talent and a big old dose of good luck too!

AbsofCroissant · 29/12/2010 14:19

"Britain is now very much like America, where the free market rules with hardly any State intervention at all"

Nope, that is patently untrue. True, unadulterated capitalism no longer exists, certainly not in the way it did in the 19th Century (which seems to be when you're writing from). For e.g., companies cannot take over and dominate an entire market without state intervention/approval (European Competition Commission), companies can't produce goods in any way or form that they want (safety requirements, minimum standards), can't treat their employees in anyway they feel or in the most efficient, market-friendly way (family rights, working hours restrictions, health and safety restrictions in the workplace) etc.

CoteDAzur · 29/12/2010 14:12

"... why did communist Soviet countries fail", obviously.

CoteDAzur · 29/12/2010 14:12

As niceguy said, there are simple reasons why communism failed and why a moderate dose of socialism is as far as any Western country will go in this day and age.

Is anyone interested in talking about this?

ivanhoe & itsawonderful - In your opinion, why did communist Soviet countries failed?

CoteDAzur · 29/12/2010 14:09

UK is not a purely capitalist country by any definition of the word. You have the NHS, for example, which is quite unthinkable in a place like the US. (Have you been watching the news in the last year or so re their health care system and the huge resistance to its overhaul?)

CoteDAzur · 29/12/2010 14:07

It is not a contradiction that (1) everyone doesn't start at the same place (some born to wealthy families, have access to higher education etc) but (2) there are opportunities out there for all to take.

This is not a contradiction. It is the world you live in.

Those who start out disadvantaged need to work harder or get lucky to seize on those opportunities perhaps, but they are not excluded from them.

There are many self-made men out there who have come from humble backgrounds.

Rather than whining about it, you might like to emulate them.

Niceguy2 · 29/12/2010 13:28

In theory socialism is a fairer form of society.

In practice it doesn't work as it does not provide sufficient incentives for people to better themselves. I mean why work harder, take on more responsibility, invent new things and generally create wealth when you get nothing out of it.

Capitalism is far from perfect. But it does give people the opportunity to better themselves. The movers & shakers like Bill Gates, yes he may not have rose from the ghetto's but through his hard work his company now employs thousands of people worldwide, created jobs for millions more and now he's able to use his wealth to provide medicines in the third world. Who would create the jobs in a socialist society? The politicians? They're too busy feathering their own nests.

The cold war was a case in point. Capitalism versus Communism. It's no secret which won.

complimentary · 29/12/2010 13:06

I do have a desire in part to be wealthy. As money gives you the freedom to do as you wish.

Prolesworth · 29/12/2010 13:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

jackstarlightstarbright · 29/12/2010 11:57

Ivanhoe

Your posts of 11.33 and 11.35 contradict each other Confused. Do you believe we have a free market economy or a mixed economy?

Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:43

/////The essence of capitalism is allowing everyone the opportunity to earn a living////

The essence of right wing Capitalism is to continue to create through market forces, enough unemployed people to keep inflation low so the rest of the unwary British public can enjoy cheaper goods, despite the fact that privatisation continues laying off workers through sackings and redundancies for the profit motive.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:35

//////jackstar- yet housing and food is more essential than health or education yet we leave that to the free market

personally I'd be happy to see a big shake up of what is state and privatly produced/////

PRECISELY.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:33

/////we do not live in a capitalist state,////

Errrrrrrrr, yes we do, with little or no State intervention.

We are soley a free market.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:31

/////The essence of socialism: denying those who are willing to better themselves the opportunities to do so, because if anyone does better than anyone else, it is "unfair".

Oh, and the state knows best. Always.//////

Please tell us all how Socialism prevents people wanting to better themselves, to do so ????????

And also please tell us how in graphic terms " the State knows best". ?

I fear that like a lot of people brainwashed by Thatcher, that you are confusing Communism with "traditional" Labour, for reasons best known to yourself.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:27

///////The essence of capitalism is allowing everyone the opportunity to earn a living, own property and accumulate wealth. We do not all have the ability to amass a 'fortune' but - at least in this country - we all have a reasonable chance at making a good life for ourselves. The tax system - imperfect and over-complicated though it certainly is - ensures that 'the wealthy' chip in towards the running of society. And labour is only squeezed when there is too much of it and it is disorganised.

Wouldn't you like to be wealthy?////////

The trouble with this posting is it's naivity.

Not everybody is a capitalist, and for those who arent, their only refduge is charity, because the state no longer provides the necessities like low rented social housing for people who cannot afford to buy.

Britain is now very much like America, where the free market rules with hardly any State intervention at all.

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Original poster
ivanhoe · 29/12/2010 11:18

////////cotedazur- you are naive,we do not have equality of oportunity

lots of kids have their fate sealed by the age of 3- they are already inescapably disadvanteged

the 'wealthiest' are not 'self-made' from poverty they are self-made from middle class backgrounds- bill gates came from harvard not a trailer trash ghetto

and yes in a lot of circs, accumulating wealth should be a crime. Is is not uncommon for wealth to be accumulated by exploiting and endangering others. eg Michelle Mone of Ultimo fame is a notoriously vicious boss who has lost at least one employment tribunal for sacking a pregnant woman.//////

SUPERB.

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TDada · 29/12/2010 07:59

what exactl is driving this post?

CoteDAzur · 28/12/2010 22:28

What you said about "accumulating wealth should be a crime" because... err.. "it is not uncommon for wealth to be accumulated by exploiting and endangering others" is pure nonsense, I'm sorry to say.

So driving cars should be a crime because it is not uncommon for cars to have accidents and cause pain and suffering, even death Hmm

CoteDAzur · 28/12/2010 22:23

itsawonderful - re " you are naive,we do not have equality of oportunity"

I am not naive. You just don't understand what you read.

I said specifically that it is not a level playing field. Do you know what that means?

However, as I also said before, the opportunities are there for all to take, regardless of how they started life.

itsawonderfuldarleneconnorlife · 28/12/2010 22:12

jackstar- yet housing and food is more essential than health or education yet we leave that to the free market

personally I'd be happy to see a big shake up of what is state and privatly produced