Want your children to be able to go to uni?

Claig, I don't care if middle class or working class students suffer most. I don't want any of them to decide against going to uni just because they can't afford it. I don't want any students to start working life saddled with such huge levels of debt.

BTW, just seen on BBC News that half of all students will never pay back their loans. So how can that be good for the economy? Who does that benefit?

because you keep saying it is all to keep Tory voters happy, and that is a misunderstanding of what it is about. It is the middle class Tories who will be hit hardest. If you believe the Labour yah boo stuff, then you will end up being deceived again, since they are the ones that brought it in.

It doesn't matter if they don't get reelected because Labour will continue it, just as the Coalition has continued Labour's fee policy.

'Btw, for what it's worth, I think the Labour government probably was just as deep in the pockets of the banks and big business as the Tories.'
That's what I am saying. Don't be fooled by their talk of caring. They started it and they will continue it next time they get in.

Claig, you seem to want to make sure we don't think Labour would have done any better. Who knows. How is that relevant, anyway, to what's happening now?

Btw, for what it's worth, I think the Labour government probably was just as deep in the pockets of the banks and big business as the Tories. Probably little difference in that respect, but this is far too important for party politics. These policies are about a fundamental reshaping of society. And we haven't been asked what we think of this. We weren't told before the elections what they were going to do.

They have four years to do their worst. It's an interesting social experiment from their point of view. They know they won't be re-elected - no matter how they try to divide and rule us. There they are, sitting round their table having good idea after good idea, while their millions pile up in their bank accounts. Not one of them has any idea at all how the majority of us live. How could they? Not unless they read their servants' servants' diaries that is. Some of them even go out and spend a night with the homeless. 10 out of 10 for trying, Grant Shapps. Now here's an idea. Instead of taking up valuable pavement space, give them some money to find somewhere to live.

Sorry. Seem to have gone off on one. Happens a lot these days.

Yes, it's clearly unfair, but the solution is not for us all to follow the English model, imo. English students should fight for the same system as the Scots, not seek to destroy what is working well in Scotland. Scottish students have come out onto the streets to support the demands of the English students. So (to repeat myself from elsewhere) how can we afford this in Scotland, when you can't in England? The Westminster government has a choice. It chooses not to spend money on education. The Scottish government has different priorities. The Welsh government really supports its students. Good for them!

(I do hope I don't have to eat my words when they raise fees in Scotland too.)

RRocks, what I mean is that Labour thought it fine that English students should pay high fees and didn't change their policies. There is not much we can do about it. Labour introduced it and now the Coalition are increasing it. Students are demonstrating. Clegg has listened to all of the objections, and has decided to vote for the policy.

Fairness is what Labour are supposed to be all about, so I am not surprised that Jim Murphy, when pressed by Andrew Neil, said that.

Apologies for the typos.

RRocks

Hi Claig,

I think that's a result of devolution, not of Labour policy. There was no love lost between the previous Labour administration or the current SNP administration in Scotland and the previous Labour administration in the UK. UK Labour cannot for Labour Scotland to adopt policies that the Scottish electorate would not vote for in a Scottish election. And they certainly can't force the SNP to do so.

It's strange that Jim Murphy should have admitted that it was unfair that English students would be the only ones to pay these fees if they study in Scotland. Presumably the Irish and Welsh pay the current level of fees. Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales each have their own government dividing up their respective pots of money according to their own priorities. It's a bit odd to say that it's unfair that an English person has to live with a decision of the English government just because a Scottish person gets better decision (or a decision you prefer) from the Scottish government. In this case the English government is the UK government, which is of course anomalour, and if you want to change that you can always agitate to get your own parliament.

I'm sure that if feels very unfair, Claig, especially since you don't agree with the policy, but I think part of the problem is that a lot of people in England (and apparently the odd Scottish MP) just don't get devolution yet. It's no more unfair than California having a different policy from Arkansas.

RRocks

Jim Murphy of Labour had to admit that it was unfair that only the English in the whole of the EU would have to pay these astronomical fees if they study in Scotland. Didn't he realise that this would be the result of Labour's policies.

It's all yah boo from Labour. One minute Johnson was against the graduate tax, now he seems to support it. You don't really believe they'd do any different do you? They started it all.

These fees only favour the elite. Labour knew it when they brought it in.

The Daily Mail, a good, solid, honourable middle class paper is on the side of the middle classes, who often vote Tory and read the Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162577/New-threat-middle-classes-Universities-plan-double-student-fees-leave-millions-debt-50s.html

Even Jim Murphy of Labour said today that it is the middle classes who will be hit by the rise in fees.

'It doesn't make sense, does it? Unless they are simply protecting the people who vote Tory'

grannie, Labour started the whole fees thing. They knew where it was going. Cameron called their number today, he said they are an organised hypocrisy. It's not just the Tories' fault. Labour brought it in for England, and Scotland didn't get it. Did Labour care about the English students?

The higher you raise tax the less the tax take. When we brought taxes down to a top rate of 40% (had been up to 99% in the UK) the tax take rose.

grannie- They are raising taxes VAT is going up to 20% next month and capital gains tax is also going up to 28%.

Thank you, RRocks. But they're not raising taxes, are they? They're cutting services to people who are really near the edge, in order to support people who are already well off. And then they are cutting off the means for those who are poor to rise out of their poverty via education. It doesn't make sense, does it? Unless they are simply protecting the people who vote Tory. But even then, surely they realise that far more people are going to be harmed than helped by these policies.

When it's all so simple really. Raise taxes on a gradual scale. Voila! (Why don't they ask me to be Chancellor?)

RRocks - that's ok - I have done the same myself before...

Hi Jackstarlightstarbright,

Apologies for getting you mixed up.

RRocks

Link to article on graduation rates From the Guardian

Hi Grannie,

The government have loads of our money swilling around in their coffers. Why do they want to give it to the banks?

The banks have huge amounts of bad debts and if the government didn't support them they would call in all the loans they had lent to businesses, which could all go bust, and possibly to you and me, so that we would lose our houses. The banks would then still all be bust. (The government would then have to pay to depositers much of the money they had deposited in the banks.)

The result would be an economic disaster with huge unemployment, homelessness and an inability to get credit to a much greater degree than exists now. Another Great Depression. They think that by shoring up the banks, and raising taxes and cutting services to pay for that, they can keep the economy going until the bad debts have somehow worked their way out of the system.

(I think.)

RRocks

Rrocks - that was me actually.

Twas 35% graduating in 2008. Down from 38% in 2000.

really, 35%, they never give us that figure.
I wonder if much has changed if we add in polytechnic figures

The Government doesn't have any money swelling around in its coffers, we are borrowing enormous amounts of money in order to finance government spending at the moment.

The banks were bailed out in order to prevent the economy going into meltdown and there being mass civil unrest on the streets. The Government nationalised 2 banks and provided guarantees for others. Its worth remebering that the money put into the banks isn't part of the structural deficit and we should make a profit when we re-privatise the state owned banks.

But not the unis??

claig, as I was advised by Coalition on another thread, 50% was Labour's target. He says the current rate of attendance at university is about 35%.

RRocks