Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Want your children to be able to go to uni?

389 replies

GreatAuntLoretta · 03/12/2010 17:12

I am really feeling the urge to join the NUS protest against tuition fees on Thursday 9th December. Although my children are both under five, I am really really upset and annoyed to think that if they want to go to university in the future we will be very unlikely to be able to afford to send them. Who knows what the fees will be by then?! Also when my children are a little older I would really like to have the opportunity to retrain and do a degree. That would be completely off the cards. (angry)

Is anyone else with young children thinking of attending? It would be good to stick together with some other parents. A large group of parents will probably be a lot safer than a random woman with a buggy and a toddler in a mass crowd.

Who is with me?

Is there already a family protest group out there?

OP posts:
bacon · 09/12/2010 14:11

Statements on Jeremy Vine earlier - Pointless degrees - Media studies etc, are these courses run to keep some of these so called lecturers in jobs? I agree!!! I've met some "lecturers" recently from our local college - really they dont inspire me! Earning god knows what ridiculous salary. Some never been in industry, havent a clue in the real world either. Too much book not enough real!

I would also question a post grad should leave to earn 21K plus, Yes, with all that extra education, costs to the tax payer etc - a good degree, in the majority of cases, should give a post grad a min of 20k. Anyless then the degree was pointless or they arent bright enough! Fair play I have met some very very dim post grads.

Suppose with the dropping of the apprenterships in the late 80's had a determental effect on average intels flooding into polys/unis when really the hands on approach with skills would of been more apt.

Most people I know are not uni educated however they earn a considerable salary, have skills and graft. I work partly in construction - a good machine driver can earn £50k plus. I know plenty of manual workers earning £70k.

Whats wrong with teaching our children that being an intelligent plummer with yr own business can earn you a good living?

RRocks · 09/12/2010 13:55

Clearly universities needed a lot more money to pay for more staff and more facilities for the huge number of additional students. Presumably the government funded this up to a point but not sufficiently according to the universities, so the top ups covered the gap. Without that money, standards would fall, irrespective of which courses the unis were offering. I think the issue of which courses should be offered at uni is different from how they should be funded, although the two, and others, are related.

Sorry, I don't know anything about degrees in football studies, who allowed them to start up or why. The 'mickey mouse' epithet isn't useful as it only expresses your disdain rather than saying anything about the course. Some people, it seems, would count them as worthwhile if they were useful for getting a job (or perhaps setting up as an agent - could be very lucrative, then they would pay lots of tax and be a major contributor to society, in that view). I don't know whether they are/were useful to people who intended to work in football. If the government thinks that too many people are doing degrees that are not worthwhile, then they should stop funding those courses. That should be fairly simple and it really has nothing to do with funding for universities in general. Maybe people who use that particular stick are doing it because it suits them? Of course, some governments have an idealogical predisposition to allowing organisations to offer whatever they want, allowing the consumer to choose, and making the funding follow the consumer, all regardless of whether any of it is useful to anyone or beneficial to the common good.

Personally, I agree that university degrees should be academic not particularly vocational - law, medicine, dentistry and vet medicine being the exceptions that spring to mind, although these courses involve a lot of practical training too.

Football Studies, How to Become a Millionaire in the Music Business or whatever, might be suitable for other FE institutions but they are fundamentally not academic and not core to what universities do. I tend to agree about turning polytechnics into universities to a large extent, but don't think it was Labour that started that, although I seem to remember there were two distinct stages so maybe Labour did the second one?

Hi Bacon,

Degrees should go back to old fashioned ways - teaching, law, science & engineering etc.

What is traditional or old-fashioned depends on where you draw the line and start your tradition. The Humanities (now called Arts) are some of the oldest courses in our universities. I agree with you as long as you include them - the main ones anyway.

If you regard a degree as valuable only to the extent that it gets you a job you might regard philosophy or history as a useless degree as it doesn't lead to any jobs. (Some would say teacher, but what's the point of teaching history at school if its a useless subject anyway?) Then you might as well do away with all Arts Faculty subjects. My boss, for example, regards Philosphy and Politics as 'Mickey Mouse subjects'. (His main interest is in making money and the main skills required in his business are a dedication to making money and numeracy.) I wonder whether David Cameron and all the other senior politicians and civil servant who did the prestigious PPE (politics, philosophy and economics) course at Oxford agree with him?

RRocks

BoffinMum · 09/12/2010 13:39

As far as I udnerstand it, increased uptake of university places has mainly been in the post-92 sector, where working class kids tend to be congregated. This is the sector that will effectively be closed down from this point onwards.

There hasn't been a particularly impressive increase in students' social mobility in pre-92 universities.

We have a two tier system at present that will rapidly revert to a one-tier system again, freezing out many social groups.

siasl · 09/12/2010 13:24

I find it hard not to have mixed feelings about tuition fees.

The UK clearly needs to cut expenditure in a big way. The country is living way outside its means. Increased tuition fees help that even only in a very small way.

However, on my list of priorities for cuts I can see much much bigger demons to slay (size of public sector and public sector final salary pensions) and I don't like the trend for making the young pay for the baby boomer's debt creation.

I'm not sure higher tuition fees will damage social mobility as much as people think. I paid for my 5 year degree in law in Australia and social mobility is better there than here. When I moved to the UK in '98 the UK was a great place to be; now it seems to be a right mess. Social mobility seems to have dropped even with almost "free" degrees, so I think you need to looks for the underlying reasons.

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 13:13

Bacon, I agree but if you think a victory today will stop that then you are wrong. These students will still go and do these so call useless degree knowing that they will never repay the loans so it's these are the ones that will still be fully funded, for your taxes.

The ones who will have to pay it back will be our future teachers, health care workers, managers and many more key workers saddled with a higher tax rate than others.

claig · 09/12/2010 12:53

RRocks, Labour say they needed the money to improve standards in education, but they allowed the proliferation of football studies degrees and "mickey mouse" degrees, which are now being used as a stick to beat all students with to justify that students should pay higher for all degrees, just because some are studying "mickey mouse" ones.

GabbyLoggon · 09/12/2010 12:51

I never got to uni....but think 9 grand woulddeter some from trying

claig · 09/12/2010 12:43

They made polytechnics into universities and allowed the proliferation of degrees in all sorts of subjects such as football studies and gambling studies etc. Why did they do this? Why didn't regulators ensure that degress could only be awarded in subjects that had more academic value? I agree that the degrees on offer need to be looked at, and some pruning should be done. Then students would choose from the high quality degrees on offer and would not be able to do a degree in football studies. Degrees should be rigorous and in academic subjects. Then the 37% who do degrees would be studying worthwhile subjects.

RRocks · 09/12/2010 12:40

Hi Cameleon,

^'In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.'

Welll... unless you understand that the only way to make 'X' work is to stop making the best of Y^

The only way to make X work is for everyone to be compelled to stop making the best of Y by taking Y away. One or more individuals stopping making the best of Y does not make X work, just as individual charity helps individual cases but doesn't eradicate poverty.

Hi Claig,

So why did Labour start the whole process, if they really care about social mobility?

I'm certainly no expert on Labour policy, and probably didn't pay much attention to what they were planning for England at that time to be honest, but I think the issue was that university standards were said to be falling due to underfunding (ie due to much increased number of students attending universities and therefore hugely increased funding requirements). Weren't top up fees supposed to cover that gap. I agree that it's hardly traditional Labour policy, but then this was New Labour and they took on a lot of Tory ideaology. I suppose New Labour sacrificed their principles on equality of opportunity to some degree in order to stop a slide in standards in universities, which arguably resulted from their own 50% policy, which was all about extending opportunity and social mobility. I guess unforseen consequences, came into play and they had to deal with that one way or another. Personally, I would have cut the 50% target and kept the unis free. There is an issue, as someone pointed out yesterday, that some of us more middle class people would be content to keep uni free by reducing the percentage of children going to university partly because we believe that our own children will still have a good chance of going. People who regard their own children as likely to be in the extra percentage encouraged to go to uni by the Labour policy might not take the same view, although they tend to still want the education to be free. I think Labour was faced with a choice between cutting back on their 50% target, which was never achieved anyway, and expecting students to take loans, and they presumably chose to retain the extra places at unis and make students take what they regarded as reasonably small loans to cover some of the additional funding required.

Sorry, that's a bit rambling, and I'm only surmising.

RRocks

bacon · 09/12/2010 12:27

What is the Point of a degree for many????

Far too many averagely educated students are going to uni. Attending courses that meet no real world needs, pointless degrees leading to admin jobs and unemployment. And that is so true of many of my friends - only one has a proper degree the rest in jobs that any good A level they could of got in. This attitude that the world is their oyster if they get this wonderful thing.

I have absolutely no care in the world whether my children get a degree I want them to get a SKILL, start from the bottom and build themselves up. If they are gifted then they'll get there degree or not.

Degrees should go back to old fashioned ways - teaching, law, science & engineering etc.

Why should hardworking tax payers pay for half cooked degrees I'd rather see the money ploughed into schools, Starting with the basics!

Degrees should be subsidised into our ecomony needs ie Doctors/surgeons high level - down to admin low level. Why should a student think that a degree that has no worth while job prospects expect it to be funded? Funded and then funded to be on the dole!

No, we should not fund everyone no matter what background they come from. Students have to accept that cuts have to be made, far too much money has been thrown around in the past, the pot is not big enough!

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 12:24

NC is now describing oponents as 'dreamers' 'because that is the way the world is' Vince Cable has mentioned 'Father Christmas' talk about sinking to new levels.

I keep quipping in, in the middle of your heavy political debates. Xmas Grin

I agree with RRocks btw.

claig · 09/12/2010 12:13

Most of us are against these student fees, because we realise that it will stop people going to university due to having to take on large debt. We understand that it will harm social mobility and hinder a meritocratic society, whilst allowing the rich to have an easier ride since they can afford it.

I am a Tory and I am against it, just like many middle class Daily Mail readers. We know it will harm social mobility. So why did Labour start the whole process, if they really care about social mobility?

camaleon · 09/12/2010 11:48

'In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.'

Welll... unless you understand that the only way to make 'X' work is to stop making the best of Y

RRocks · 09/12/2010 11:32

We know that social mobility declined under Labour, despite all their protestations of how much they are in favour of it. Diane Abbott and others sent their children private and didn't have them experience ths same system as the rest of us.

That doesn't mean they intended it; their policies failed to achieve what they wanted. And the fact that a socialist sends their child to a private school doesn't mean that they are not in favour of social mobility - they clearly are for their own child. It means that whilst they favour a socialist sytem, which should enable working class people the same opportunities as others, they are not going to let their socialist priciples get in the way of doing the best for their own children. Call it hypocritcal if you like, but it does not mean that they don't want opportunities for all to be socially mobile. In fact, I don't think it is hypocritical to take the view that the best way to organise things for society as a whole is X, but at the moment we have Y, so I'll personally make the best of Y.

RRocks

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 11:19

As for labour breaking promises, they all do. 'Call me David' said back in March that they would leave EMA alone, a blatent lie, so we have 2 parties with power lying to the public.

Does anyone know if they are including voting on abolishing EMA today as well?

camaleon · 09/12/2010 11:16

I am not sure at all about the answer jackstarlightstarbright. But that proposal will certainly help to keep lecturers/academic life as something not solely governed by the laws of the market and the satisfied customer.

claig · 09/12/2010 11:15

The student fee thinking started long before the bank bailouts

'In May 1996 Conservative Prime Minister John Major commissioned an inquiry led by Sir Ron Dearing to make recommendations into the future of funding of higher education in Britain and how it should develop over the next 20 years.

Following the publication of the Dearing Report into the future funding of higher education on 23 July 1997 then education secretary David Blunkett announced the introduction of means tested tuition fees to begin in September 1998.'

'I don't think socialists generally want to restrict social mobility. They were wrong about the abolition of grammar schools, but the aim wasn't to restict social mobility, it was an idealogical attempt the make sure that everybody had the same opportunity by making them go to the same school and experience the same system.'

what socialists say and what they do are two different things. We know that social mobility declined under Labour, despite all their protestations of how much they are in favour of it. Diane Abbott and others sent their children private and didn't have them experience ths same system as the rest of us.

christmaseve · 09/12/2010 11:14

Just had a chat with a colleague who got her degree for free here as an international student with no alternative at home, her country paid her fees. She is in a clerical job so earning a lower than average salary which didn't require a degree but she thinks it's the right thing to do as she met people in uni who dossed because there was nothing better to do. Hmm I pointed out that these proposals won't stop students like that and will penalise the sucessful and hardworking ones.

This is what should be looked at but they won't as it will have an detrimental affect of the local economy in these uni towns.

seekinginspiration · 09/12/2010 11:13

To divert the topic - the problem for the lib dem MPs is huge. If they vote for the policy they will condemn the lib dems to 100 years in the wilderness. The British Public barely have any confidence in politicians as it is. Neither of the other parties signed pledges, had their photos taken saying "I pledge to vote against the raising of tuition fees". Whether on not the policy is right, wrong, affordable, beneficial in the long run or whatever it would be immoral for any lib dem MP to vote FOR this policy. The changes will be passed either way - but if they vote yes England will instantly become a two political party country again.

RRocks · 09/12/2010 11:08

Claig,

no, because the student fees policy was started long before the bank bailouts. All that has happened is the inevitable increase in the fees, but this was always intended.?

Can you share the evidence for this, please?

it's about following the American model, keeping the people under control and in debt, and restricting social mobility, just as the abolition of grammar schools by the socialists also was.

I don't think socialists generally want to restrict social mobility. They were wrong about the abolition of grammar schools, but the aim wasn't to restict social mobility, it was an idealogical attempt the make sure that everybody had the same opportunity by making them go to the same school and experience the same system. That doesn't mean everybody gets the same results and stays in the same socio-economic position.

RRocks

jackstarlightstarbright · 09/12/2010 11:05

"This is the ideological debate I was referring to... Do we want Universities that are part of our public services or not?"

Camaleon - So am I right in assuming the NUS 'graduate tax' is aimed at getting the graduates to pay for their HE, whilst keeping the Universities as public services (i.e lecturers keep their academic freedom)?

claig · 09/12/2010 11:00

exactly camaleon, normal school education will be next. Free schools and commercial outfits will run eductaion. People will get vouchers and will need to top them up if they want more than a basic education.

This is an attack on all of the country's people, but as usual the main brunt is the middle class. Note how they keep rolling out working class truck drivers etc. to ask why they should subsidise students, when the truck drivers pay for all their own courses. They are trying divide and rule and pretending that they are on the side of the working class truck drivers in order to carry out what they want and to stop the middle class complaining.

camaleon · 09/12/2010 10:52

'Also should the relative rich and educated (those who tend to go to university) be subsidised by the poor (average tax payers) or should people who want a university education pay for it themselves?'

This is the ideological debate I was referring to... Do we want Universities that are part of our public services or not?
Xenia, you could also wonder, 'should the relative rich and educated (those who tend to send their kids to private education) pay with their taxes those who still want primary education provided by the State.

camaleon · 09/12/2010 10:49

Totally agree with claig. This is not (at least not only) about the money. It is about privatisation of Universities with all its consequences. It is following the successful American model following the rules of the market.

It is largely an ideological debate on what kind of Universities we want, what function will they play in society, etc. It is not only debt that will keep people under control.

This is also the end of lecturers/researchers conception as civil servants. I do not see any space for a real concept of 'academic freedom' within Universities that are not public institutions anymore.

Xenia · 09/12/2010 10:47

Indeed. We spent beyond our means. Socialists often do that. They aren't like good parents who ensure they only spend what they have and now we're paying that price.

Also should the relative rich and educated (those who tend to go to university) be subsidised by the poor (average tax payers) or should people who want a university education pay for it themselves?