Want your children to be able to go to uni?

Is it fair that help is available to the tune of 18K for families who don't work and take alot out of the system but not for single parents that earn their money but have less income. Doesn't sound fair to me.

Apollinare

I'm sure the LibDems know that 14% secondary school children claim FSM. Only a fraction of whom go onto Uni.

If they use a 3 year FSM rule they would catch most deprived children (not sure if that's the plan).

The Welsh are not putting any extra funds into HE - they are just shuffling it around. 'Robbing Peter to pay Paul' as it were.

You qualify for fsm if you don't work at all. Don't think this will stop the protests or the backlash against the rise in fees. Pathetic attempt imo.

So the Lib Dems have concocted a little bribe to shut us English up - do they have ANY idea when they gaze down from moneybags mansion how few people can qualify for free schools meals? As soon as one parent gets working families tax credit - ie works, the meals benefit stops.

BTW Mr Clegg, if your policy is so excitingly progressive and forward thinking, as you have bleated in the press today, how come the Welsh and Scottish aren't rushing to embrace it?

The cuts in Humanities budgets will affect not just creative and literary practice, but also social sciences - investigations into the effects on single parents of welfare cuts, corruption, institutional racism and the like will be curtailed,while those fab surveys beloved of Steve Wright "85% of people say that when they smile it means they are happy" will flourish because its siunz, innit.

WK2010 - sorry last post was to granted x posted with you.. I agree with you that the LibDem idea to penalise upfront payment of fees probably won't happen.

My point Re: FSM numbers at Uni - is it's a scandal it so small. Maybe it will now grow?

wasn't me re fsm. There were 45 students at Oxbridge who had been on free school meals. Let's face it is not going to help very many.

Brain drain - yes in Ireland. Also, it's not just the increase in fees it's the way the debt is calculated by using a much more punitive (compound) interest rate. Average student debt now is 20-30k, it will end up at around 80k. The smart lower-middle income English families/kids will be studying in Europe for (almost) nothing. Many will stay there ...

granted,

"Plus your earlier point about the poor getting help with fees - you do realise that only applies to 18,000 students max, don't you?"

My reaction to the article was slightly different. Only 18000 FSM eligible pupils going to Uni is a a very small number and the article implies that it will actually be an improvement on the current situation.

About 14% of secondary pupils are on FSM. I calculate that 14% of one years intake at Uni is more than 50,000.

That's 30,000 children who get lost on the way!

-.Is there any evidence that the current tuition fees create a significant brain drain? I wonder if an extra £9k - £18k debt will increase it by much?

No Jack - sorry - they are proposing that if you have taken out the loan that you cannot accelerate your payments without paying an 'early repayment penalty'.

They will not require the rich to take out the loans, see here

This means that the rich will never pay the compound interest payable by all but the poorest.

Like all loans, it's a penalty on not being rich enough to afford something outright.

Sorry - the LibDems are proposing to disallow upfront payments.

Thinking about it - I'm not sure if it will be included. The attraction of some quick payment into the scheme - might out-way the 'fairness' argument.

maypole1, you seem to be blissfully unaware that the creative industries are one of this country's big moneyspinners - fashion, music, literature, drama, art - they all bring billions of pounds into the UK economy every year, and are one of the few industries that we are world leaders at, and where we are not threatened by cheaper manufacturing costs etc elsewhere. And unlike the banking sector, they have not neded a massive bail-out, either.

If your family member's literacy is at your levels, that may explain their lack of employment - even artists need to write grammatically correct applications.

jackstarbright, of course you can avoid it by leaving the country.How are they going to know what/if you're earning if you're abroad?

They're not privy to that information.

Of course it will lead to a huge brain drain.

Plus your your earlier point about the poor getting help with fees - you do realise that only applies to 18,000 students max, don't you?

A tiny drop in the ocean out of the hundreds of thousands of students.

Jack - no, that's not the case. Only those who need it take out the loan. The rich don't need it bc they can pay up front.

I think the plan is to for every student to get the loan. If they want to pay it off early - then they pay a penalty.

In effect it's a 'graduate tax' which the graduate stops paying when the full amount it's paid off.

And, unlike a tax - you can't avoid it by leaving the country.

Xenia - be serious!

This is a huge financial burden (call it a loan, tax what you will) on those of lower middle income and above unless you're enough not to need to a loan to pay in the first place.

The rich will pay the money upfront.
The middle will pay the money with compound interest.
The poorest will pay nothing (but 21k in 2016 is about 16-18k in today's prices according to coalition calculations).

A 'rich' child whose parents don't support them will be able to get a loan just like anyone else. Why is that discriminating against him/her?

They are proposing discerimination against not in favour of the rich. the poor child whose parents might even help him financially will pay less or very little in 1 or 2 of the years. The rich child whose parents pay not a penny will have to take out loans for the full sum. They are proposing to visit the sins of the parent on the child as it were in a very discriminatory way never mnid the race discrimination. If you're Welsh or Scottish you pay nothing but as ever England subsidises all that and if you're English you pay.

Just to say that I send a pic of ds holding a "I'm a baby not a cash cow" poster in solidarity to the UCL students and got a nice message back: "Thank you so much for the lovely pictures. Still requesting and collecting pictures from parents so we can send a true message of solidarity! Email pics to [email protected]"

love this one here Did any of us mumsnetters send it? So cute!

granted -

No doubt the increase in fees will be a disincentive to attending university for some poorer school leavers. But this should help. Poorer Students get Tuition Feed Paid For up to 2 Years.

Hertsmum,

If these poor children possess both intelligence and common sense, they will choose a lucrative course and see it as an investment in their future.

also i think it will stop dead these nonsense courses, people will think twice when choosing to do these silly courses and choose something more contrastive like law, or medicine.

if a student wants to do "media studies then they must pay i quite happy to help with young people who want to do things that benefit the country but i will be dammed if i will pay for some crusty wanting to study art let them pay for it and when they complete their non degree and cannot get a job then it will be a lesson to their parents and younger children that should have guided their youngster to make a better choice

BTW my bil has completed a art degree before anyone starts can he get a job no because not many jobs out their that require an art degree and now he is doing what on the dole,

we are currently trying to get him to take up the PGE so he can become an art teacher an actually get a job but to be honest i very much doubt if he new he would be saddled with 9k of debut he would of chosen art and just went into law

How are bright children of low income families supposed to get on in life?

As a concerned mum of 2 teenagers, I am going to join the protest in London on Thurs Dec 9th - 12pm, ULU, Malet Street (near Euston) and would urge others to come to

These degrees need not disappear, but they could be recognised as a luxury, and let the buyer beware.

Under the current system, the degrees that are disappearing and the ones that would pay back quite easily (eg Physics-based degrees).

And there is a big gulf between traditional arts and humanities degrees and the mickey mouse ones that have popped up in the last 10 - 15 years.

Granted-I throughly agree.

Ameryscot- you don't need to apologise for your point of view just admit it is wrong

I agree that degreees that will benefit the public sector could have fees waived without too much difficulty, (I would support this). However THE GOVERNMENT ARE NOT PROPOSING TO DO THIS!!!

However degrees in the arts or humanities, will not have the same earning power and therefore under your reasoning would disappear.

Agree with your first part, jackstarbright, but don't really understand "getting more students from poorer homes into University is about so much more than the fees."

Certainly, there's more than money to it, but that doesn't change the fact that money is one of the factors, I'd argue the biggest factor, the sine qua non, for poor students.

If they can't afford it, they're not even going to bother trying to get the grades needed, and if they do get them, it will be irrelevant.

So presumably, amerryscot, all studies that don't lead to an immediate high salary are wrong. So no-one should study the arts at all - sod culture, if you can't turn it into instant cash, then it has no value.

You come across as someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Or maybe I'm being unfair?

"What I don't get is why you think that making students pay more for their education is going to make it fairer or easier for poor students"

granted I never said that. I'm just pointing out that those who tend to gain from a University are, in the main, middle and upperclass kids.

And getting more students from poorer homes into University is about so much more than the fees.