Page 2 | How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

ivanhoe · 2010-11-30T13:09:05+00:00

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions. Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice. So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss. But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years. Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts. Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

Original poster

ivanhoe · 22/01/2011 14:53

40sdiva. Brilliant.

The trouble is that Thatcher's children, the 30 to 40 year somethings today, were promised a Utopia by Thatcher, so Thatcher's children are very bitter.

Thatcher's chidren see only themselves and their own individualism, they want low income taxes, ( which they have )another car, another holiday,, they are the pretentious generation.

Elderly peop;le have not only been forgotten, they have been marginalised, and are descriminated against.

Is there any chance we can connect off this site ?

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40sdiva · 21/01/2011 15:36

Lets get this topic into a little bit of perspective :-
I am a pensioner at the younger end of the age scale. Some pensioners are relatively well off, having paid into pension funds etc. Others on the other hand are finding these cuts eating into an already smallish pension.
Taking my own case as an example, born in the 1940's at a time when rationing was then in place, and ordinary working class people were all,on a level playing field. They did not moan about the situation, they understood why sacrifices had had to be made {it was preferable to a life under the Jack Boot]
There was no keeping up with the Jones's, what you did not have you went without. Gradually things got better but attitudes remained the same for a long time, right into the 60's when I had my children, having things on 'tick' was classed as a bad thing debt was a dirty word.
So how did we manage? We struggled that's how, I kept a family of 3 on a fiver a week 'food and clothes' the rest went into paying for a mortgage. A house was seen as a must if you did not want to spend the first days of your marriage and bringing up small children living with your parents or in-laws. When the first two went to School I got a part time job, seeing my main priority as a Mother and to be there when the children returned from school.
We went without a lot of things taken for granted these days........'But hey I love to see some of the things available to youngsters these days' Its what we worked for to achieve! Time marched on and by my forties I had a grandchild and elderly parents, I nursed my father for 2 years before his death in 1989 from cancer, within two years Mum was bed ridden and needed 24/7 care for the remaining years of her life dying in 2001 at 96 years old so 13 years I could not work......My marriage broke up under the strain and at 57 saw myself bereft of anyone left to care for.
So I went back out to work on the community caring yes for elderly people. I kept this up for a few years until a bad back rendered me unable to lift patients as I once could do. [Forget no lifting policy's they just don't work in emergency situations]
So the pension I now receive is based on my X husbands contributions, I do get pension credit bringing my total to the £132 per week
then I have to pay my fuel and light bills [incidentally my WFA does go towards them] House Insurance, tv licence, life insurance,telephone and internet provider.. There's not much left to be honest, and take into to account I have to maintain the house as well, a smaller place is not an option ATM as I have to have room for grandchildren and great grandchildren visits, as some live in another part of the UK........I have given up my car because of the hike in fuel at a time when I really need it, I have a trapped spinal nerve..I'm not selfish and I resent the suggestion by some on this forum that all Pensioners are so............I and many like me gave up a lot to make things better for their children and the up and coming generation ! We made mistakes granted, as all human's do, but most of us have retained our humanity towards others..So when I look at some of the comments on this forum my heart sinks,we have spoiled the very people we thought to protect and provide for to the point where they can not show a bit of humanity/understanding towards the older members of society.

magicbutterfly · 21/01/2011 07:02

Ivanhoe, you appear to be bitter about many things. However, simply being rude to others because they disagree with you will get you nowhere.

Chil1234 · 20/01/2011 07:37

Being old and bitter is easy.

Original poster

ivanhoe · 19/01/2011 23:38

Charity is easy.

Standing and being counted on behalf of others isnt, particularly when it means increases in taxation to give other people a better life style, ie pensioners.

Dickens Christmas Carol is a study in "ignorance breeding want".

Take heed, you will be old one day.

And plenty can happen in between.

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Chil1234 · 19/01/2011 14:33

One sad story doesn't prove a point. There are legions of volunteers who give up their time every day for elderly people. There are families that care for their elderly relatives in the home rather than leave it to someone else. In our street, when the snow was bad recently, a few of us knocked on doors of older residents and offered to sweep paths or get shopping.

You might be greedy and self-centred but you don't represent me or the people I know.

Original poster

ivanhoe · 19/01/2011 14:17

I notice there's been no takers on this one.

Because it's very true.

We British are the most greey self centred race on this planet.

We get exactly the government's we deserve.

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Original poster

ivanhoe · 20/12/2010 22:39

/////I absolutely despise the fact that because my husband earns over and I cannot work that we get outr child benefit taken off us and are classed as 'middle class' when a couple could earn twice as much and get more tax allowance and be much better off with 'disabled' children or any other commitments.//////

Yes the system deliberately pits man again man, and we Brit's fall for it every time.

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Original poster

ivanhoe · 16/12/2010 12:14

//////ivanhoe for once i agree wholehearedly with you///////

Do you ?, how terribly fortunate I am to have such a worldy gift bestowed upon myself.

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dreamingofsun · 06/12/2010 15:44

ivanhoe for once i agree wholehearedly with you. what also shocked me is that normally salisbury is the most gentile and civil of places.

Original poster

ivanhoe · 06/12/2010 10:46

This is the hallmark of our uncaring Nation.

Totally self obsorbed

Collapsed man left in street for five hours
Retired gardener Brian Courtney nearly died of hypothermia when he collapsed in a Salisbury street and passers-by ignored him for five hours.

Salisbury: hundreds walked past a collapsed man without helping him (Alamy)
The great-grandfather was walking to his doctor?s surgery when he fell unconscious on the pavement at about 8am.

But hundreds of pedestrians and motorists breezed past the 77-year-old and someone finally dialled 999 at 12.40pm.

When paramedics arrived minutes later, his body temperature had fallen to 26C (78.8F) and he was nearly dead.

Mr Courtney, who suffers from a kidney condition, was taken to hospital and doctors were amazed he survived the ordeal in central Salisbury, Wiltshire.

?I can?t believe that nobody stopped to help him,? said his daughter Karen Paddington. ?It makes you question how caring people really are here,? she added.

A spokesman for the Great Western Ambulance Service NHS Trust confirmed just how close the pensioner had been to dying.
.He said: ?We received a 999 call at 12.40 last Wednesday to an elderly patient suffering from hypothermia.

?The man was thought to be in his 70s by the caller. He was in the advanced stages of hypothermia.

?The call was classed as Category A which meant the condition was immediately life threatening. It was a high priority call.

?A crew arrived at 12.42 and delivered the patient to Salisbury District Hospital.?

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Original poster

ivanhoe · 05/12/2010 13:29

//////I think Ivanhoe's point is that the free market is about profit not people and therefore is against humanity and the human soul. There is some truth in that.//////

There is every truth in that.

Im not religous, but the day Britain voted for Thatcher, that was the day Britain lost it's soul.

It is the banishment of the Ten Commandments, in favour of the golden idle, all over again, but we dont see it, because we dont want to see it.

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Original poster

ivanhoe · 05/12/2010 13:26

//////Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society./////

Yes, markets, as in Europe, need State intervention. Britain is pure market forces.

Otherwise we are a dog eat dog, couldnt care less nation.

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Original poster

ivanhoe · 04/12/2010 13:28

//////Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society./////

Brilliant.

The free market without State intervention, is like a drowing man without a life belt,
while those around him more able, have several life belts.

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claig · 04/12/2010 09:52

I think the substitution 'makes people unhappy' for the 'against the human soul' in the phrase
'free marketa are against the human soul'
is not quite strong enough.

I think the human soul represnts the law of nature and involves the concept of justice and breaking the laws of nature and going against God. Going 'against the human soul' is going against religion, since the soul is of God and not of this earth. So the transgression of going against the human soul is far greater than just making someone unhappy. You don't believe in the human soul, which means you are probably not religious and don't believe in God. Therefore ypu won't agree that a transgression against the soul is a far greater transgression than making someone unhappy.

claig · 04/12/2010 09:27

Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 04/12/2010 09:13

Claig - that entirely depends on your definition of the terms. I don't believe in a metaphysical spirit it soul, but I think we can sub in 'makes people unhappy' for 'against the soul' in this specific instance.
Do you agree with the substitution?

That leaves us with 'Free market'. As I would use the term, its a fairly neutral term for describing how people actually behave in trade when they are not responding to attempts to manipulate it - and that this is one of the optimal ways to allocate resources. This says nothing about what the aims of social assistance or social policy should be.
Others use the term to mean some kind if neo-Darwin nonsense, or some crap about the wisdom if crowds.
Ivanhoe and maybe you as well, Claig, I suspect ate using it to mean a moneterist economic and small statist social policy as advocated by eighties Tories.

claig · 04/12/2010 00:16

I think Ivanhoe's point is that the free market is about profit not people and therefore is against humanity and the human soul. There is some truth in that.

huddspur · 04/12/2010 00:03

Ivanhoe I don't know what your point is

newwave · 03/12/2010 23:33

TCNY, In Ivanhoe makes some valid points but you are wasting your time trying to have a one way debate.

I detest the Tories and BNP but I would debate anything with them.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 23:27

ivanhoe - What IS your point?

Original poster

ivanhoe · 03/12/2010 23:19

/////"The free market goes against the soul."

What are you talking about?/////

You have proved my point.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 20:59

Not much point you posting it if you don't want it understood really.

Original poster

ivanhoe · 03/12/2010 20:38

To you ?, no.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 20:36

Ivanhoe - FINALLY some support for your argument/points! Personally, I think at that length you should link rather than copy and paste, but that's just nit-picking :)

Now, that sounds like a good project - can you explain the relevance to the thread and any of the specific points?