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Original poster

Should City Workers Voluntarily Return their Bonuses to the State?

113 replies

rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 12:47

Would that be the Big Society in action? ie an acceptance that the City owes the State a lot of money at the moment which it is only refusing to return in the form of not paying out bonuses because it argues that the problems we now have are not the responsibility of any one individual.

And do City workers genuinely believe they only do a good job in order to get a huge bonus? That it is only the scent of money that makes them financially astute? It's not as if that theory has worked very well to date...

(yes, this is a flagrant attempt to carry on my Big Society thread...).

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:51

Oh, and I maybe disagree with the position of the collective (ie there is nothing wrong with the individuals, I just don't agree with the way the system works in the City, rather than the people working within the system).

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:47

Aargh. I've misexpressed myself again. I don't even despise people who don't realise how lucky they are, I just think some people don't realise how lucky they are. Double aaaaaaaaaargggggggggghhhhhhh. My only excuse is I'm very tired at the moment!

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:43

Sorry you took my comments personally, pagwatch (and likewise, sorry I took yours personally). It is not my opinion of people who work in the City - as I said, I have worked there myself. I admit it is verging on my opinion of people who, in my opinion, don't realise who lucky they are. But it would need a face to face conversation, I think, to understand what people are trying to say when it gets this involved.

So, can we agree to part amicably? I really don't like upsetting people just because I've disagreed with their argument and they've disagreed with mine.

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:40

(Oh, now I remember, I also translated the Big Society into a misguided attempt to encourage people to be more altruistic, rather than an attempt to get more people to choose their own causes... I think maybe I should have just written an essay at home, it was far too complicated to bring up on mumsnet and expect anyone to understand what the hell I was on about... I even forgot what I was on about by halfway through).

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pagwatch · 26/11/2010 19:36

I am not being rude. I am just explaining that you are not a moderator and you don't own a thread just because youvstarted it.
I said I can't get past your sweeping generalizations and I can't
The city is not occupied solely by greedy overpaid indifferent types. And decent companies providing services and making money for shareholders (including pension funds) should not be 'ashamed' when they have done nowt wrong.

If you are talking about aspects of the banking system then stop saying the city. It is grating - like the wankers who cut to images of Lloyds building when talking about bsnking

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:32

Well, I've got what I wanted out of this thread now - that my argument was flawed! Now I can leave it happy, because you have all helped me work through the logic, regardless of the misunderstandings along the way.

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noddyholder · 26/11/2010 19:30

No I think people tailor their spending and choices based on knowing they get these bonuses i just think they should be scrapped full stop and financial geniuses paid accordingly and all others just on par with teh rest of us.

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:27

ie I was including my belief that we should be willing to contribute more directly to the State in my argument falsely, making it sound as though I both believed that bankers should definitely give away their bonuses AND that they should pay them to the State. I confess I have a fixed belief in the latter (that we should contribute more to the State), but not in the former.

I can see why everyone found it so difficult to understand me, now!

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curlymama · 26/11/2010 19:27

I only know a few people that earn mga money and get huge bonuses each year, but every single one of them gives alot of money to their chosen charity. One lady I know does this because she would like to be able to give more time and simply can't, so she gives the money instead, which charities need just as much. I only have a little money to give, but I do donate alot of time to two charities that I'm passionate about.

So my point is, what makes you think that city bonuses do nothing but line personal bank balances?

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:21

(Now, that's what I call constructive criticism of my argument!).

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:20

Good point, huddspur!!!!! That was me thinking where I would like it to go!

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huddspur · 26/11/2010 19:18

If they give their bonuses to HMRC then the money will go to the state which isn't what the big society is about though is it

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:17

pagwatch - I prefer a bit hussy! I know people don't often read the threads. And I know it's difficult to keep the conversation going the way you want. It's just that my friends in real life aren't that interested in talking about politics, so I was using this thread to have a chance to think things through. (So, I basically think you are being a little bit rude to call me a "bit hussy"... especially since I seem to be the one who has done the most apologising).

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:14

I think also some people are just saying that they are happy with things staying the way they are, and I basically am not. This doesn't mean I believe bankers should give back their bonuses, though. It is just that I was thinking about the Big Society and its skewed logic and trying to follow its philosophy through to its "logical" conclusion, which might lead you to say that city workers should give back their bonuses as their way of contributing to the Big Society because they don't have lots of spare time to volunteer.

So, in other words, I really, truly am not saying what I believe, I'm just trying to follow a narrative. You may not agree with the usefulness of this, but then you didn't start the thread.

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pagwatch · 26/11/2010 19:11

Arf. Not a bit hussy . Hissy

catinthehat2 · 26/11/2010 19:11

Well someone told me yesterday
That when you throw your love away
You act as if you don't care
You look as if you're going somewhere

But I just can't convince myself
I couldn't live with no one else
And I can only play that part
And sit and nurse my broken heart

So lonely
So lonely
So lonely
So lonely

So lonely
So lonely
So lonely

So lonely
So lonely
So lonely

So lonely
So lonely

pagwatch · 26/11/2010 19:10

People seldom read the whole thread. That is mn .it is a chat room not a debating society.
If you want people to stick to the line of discussion in which you are interested you either have to doggedly keep reiterating your point . But being a bit hussy isn't going to do it.
Besides sometimes the chat moves into far more interesting ares.

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:08

Or maybe I really am to blame, because I was trying to be on two threads at the same time (Big Society and this one) and have mixed up what was agreed on one and what was agreed on the other. I will have to look back over the thread again, myself!

Anyway, I think basically we are misunderstanding each other. I am not bossy, just confused because we are not talking about the same thing at all.

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siasl · 26/11/2010 19:07

I don't see why you think everyone in the City should give back their compensation?

My DH was a prop trader for an inv bank before becoming a hedge fund manager/trader.

His compensation structure is very transparent. The fund charges investors a 2% management fee and 20% of the net return. After costs are paid, DH gets 0.5% management fee and 15% of the net return on the capital he manages. Paid on a total comp basis, the "bonus" is what's left over after his salary. He must reinvest 50%+ of this bonus in his fund to align his interests with the investors.

He can only take all his money out when he unwinds his fund and leaves. If investor's don't like how he or the wider fund is performing they can withdraw capital with 30 days notice.

What's the problem with this? Why should he hand back his compensation? These are private investors giving money to a private company.

I can sort of understand anger with RBS, HBOS and Northern Rock but you can't tar everybody with the same stick. My DH has never lost money since he started. In fact his best years were 2008 and 2009.

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 19:05

?? My point is that I don't think individuals are to blame, pagwatch. I raised the argument so that people would argue against me and we could come to an agreement on this by the end of the thread. One minute I thought we had achieved that (ie that we are all in this together) and the next, everyone was taking what I said at the beginning literally, again. So, my only conclusion could be that people looked at the title thread and then the last few posts without reading the whole thing properly.

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pagwatch · 26/11/2010 19:03

Hey swc how are things. How is the ds?
I didn't know you were an executive city type Grin

pagwatch · 26/11/2010 18:57

You are very bossy aren't you.

I worked in the city for 18 years and I don't agree with you. Half my team worked in the city, half worked in Essex and greater London. We were paid a bit more not least because commute and associated costs are very high but no - not paid some magic fantabulous wage because of location.

Your experience is not definitive. I know people who get good ( although not banker sized) bonuses because they generate substantial income for staff, shareholders etc. And they all pay their taxes
If you think people are to blame for this mess then find out who and blame them. Don't wander around with a big stick to trash anyone in the same locality

Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 18:55

smallwhitecat, can I suggest you read the thread from beginning to end? I think my purpose will then become clear to you. If you don't read a developing thread very carefully, you don't understand it however carefully ideas are expressed.

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smallwhitecat · 26/11/2010 18:40

This reply has been deleted

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Original poster
rabbitstew · 26/11/2010 18:38

But, hey, I guess - long live mumsnet with all its different levels of conversation and hugely differing opinions! I do find it fun posting on here, even when things don't go my way.

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