Bailouts could bankrupt Germany itself

What the Left in this country has generally sought though (certainly in the last 50 years) is social democracy, which is very different to the state socialism of the ex USSR, China etc.

Sweden, for example, is not a notably authoritarian country.

Socialism and fascism are both highly authoritarian ideologies that believe that the state has absolute power and supremacy over the right of the citizen. They are very similar in their beliefs.

I think the socialist left still do oppose our membership of the EU for the same dogmatic reasons that the Labour Party opposed our entry into the EEC.

The centre left ie the New Labour don't oppose EU membership because they see the obvious benefits of free trade between nations.

hmm.
inequality, no democracy, nationalism, corpratism and conservatism.
Reminds me - anyone remember the SOviet UNion? That was a bit " lefty" as I recall.

swc - Hitler was a fascist which by definition is extreme right wing because he belived in inequality, no democracy, nationalism, corpratism and conservatism

If you think they are socialists because they used the word socialists, well HItler wanted to drop the 'socialist' part and rename them the "social revolutionary party' which would have been more erm, upfront, as they say.

Good question. Maybe because once we were in people realised the good points and that it wasn't about pushing down wages (Social Chapter etc)?

Or maybe linked to weakening ties to the Commonwealth and increased ease of travel to other European countries for ordinary people?

Is that mainly because the left has died out in this country

I would agree Huddspur that on balance we are better in the EU than out, Euro aside.

Was just pointing out wrt earlier comments that it hasn't historically been left = Europe, right = out.

Membership of the EEC or the EU as it is now has been and is very beneficial to the country. The old Labour party opposed it as it was deeply socialist and seemed to favour protectionism and isolationism both of which are forms of economic masochism.

Do y'all read Golem ? If not, worth a look, though a bit purple-pen at times.

Is it worth pointing out that historically, the Conservatives were the ones in favour of entering the EEC, the (old) Labour party against.

And that the Big Bang deregulation of banks happened in Britain under a Cons. government.

Leaving that aside, I absolutely agree that the whole banking crisis hasn't even scratched the surface of what is possible yet, and also that it is a Very Good Thing that we are not in the Euro (and yes, the left was arguing at least as vehemently as the right against it back in the 90s).

We live in interesting times, as they say.

A devaluation would be helpful but I think you would get a run on the currency and this certainly wouldn't help

Leaving the euro and reverting back to their original currency wouldn't help any of the countrys that have sovereign debt problems as no-one would want their original currency. There would be an immediate run on punts for example if Ireland went back.

You think if the Irish had had control of monetary policy they'd have put interest rates up to restrict the amount of credit in the economy, I don't.
The biggest problem Ireland have is they believed the celtic tiger and the economic miracle rhetoric and failed to properly regulate their banking sector, that combined with the ridiculous policy of guranteeing every deposit in Irish banks which has petrified the bond markets
Membership of the euro has taken the option of devaluing the currency away but I don't think you can say that devaluation would solve Irelands problems.

The nazis were very left wing, I always find it strange when the BNP are described as the far right even though they're one of the most most left wing party in british politics.

Going back to topic I think there are benefits of a single market with a single currency but I think that its was done far too quickly and didn't allow for convergence of the northern european economies eg Germany and Southern European economies eg Portugal/Greece and that there needs to be far greater coordination of fiscal policy between eurozone countries.

All that said I don't think its fair to blame the euro totally for the mess, a lot of countries outside of the euro eg UK have dreadful sovereign debt problems so whilst it might sound good for people eg Farage to blame it all on the euro I don't think its entirely accurate.

I think that is bullshit swc

Are you seriously implying that Hitler was a right winger?

Riven - I seem to remember that Nazi is short for National Socialist or something similar. Now does it make sense?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the next coming years, if some of these European politicians end up against a wall.