If your 17 year old wanted to take a day off school to attend the student funding march on Wed would you condone it

Riven, I did a degree then had children and stayed at home. I retrained as a m/w so not sure how making it a degree closes it to people like me.

The responsibility of a midwife is so great I think its good that the standards of the course has been raised.

I don't see the point of degrees for what are essentially vocational jobs. What do they add and what makes them better than on the job training?

I would be proud of him! it's so important for teens to express the concerns on issues that directly effect them! it all part of our wonderful democracy isn't it?

I'd disagree about making midwifery not a degree career. I'm glad I've got my degree, it taught me how to pull apart research to ensure that its valid rather than just believing the conclusion. It taught me to reflect better so that my practice improves. Loads of other stuff as well.

Riven , that's so true and such a ridiculous change. I'm not sure the increased access to degrees has been a good thing.

Hello again, Riven! Yes I agree about that. Had a rotten night thinking about the demo and the students. Watching the clip on TV -it sent my adrenalin pumping and my eyes were glued to the set - I was horrified and thrilled in equal measure.
Maybe, just maybe, this will have given David Cameron pause to think again. He described the demo as 'very serious', and although I've never voted Tory I think it's possible he may be decent at heart - maybe he really hadn't a clue how older children, students and parents were feeling.
Not so some of the LibDem MPs. I heard Norman Lamb, who is a Norfolk MP, on the radio this morning, saying he regretted ever having signed the LibDem undertaking not to increase tuition fees.
Hypocrite, turncoat. Beneath contempt.

This whole thing is not only about fees, and cutting down the number of students going to Uni. It is about the privatisation of academia, the conversion (even more than now) of students into consumers and teachers into providers of services for satisfied customers.

And this impacts mainly humanities and arts... Philosophy run by the happy customer. The market (the students able to pay the increasing fees) will decide how much a degree's course. I read recently an article by Stefan Collini on this. One of his many good arguments is pointing out to a very plausible scenario:

'...while it may be true that the present system embodies an unnecessary pretence that all institutions called universities perform the same set of functions, it is not good deluding ourselves that simply leaving 18-year-old applicants to cash in their vouchers at a university of their choice will lead to a more intelligently conceived provision of diverse, high-quality institutions. It may just lead to a few private jets and a lot of Ryanairs'

Hi theperfecthousewife and also alicatte - Well, I wonder if there is somewhere we can go from here? I'd just LURVE to see a massive demonstration by parents and like minded middle agers, it would really shock Cameron, Clegg et al I think, if the demo was big enough. Wednesday is Prime Minister's Questions day, when the House of Commons is fullest.
And wouldn't it be nice to back up our kids?

Not sure they have. When my db graduated he had to write 600 letters/applications before he got his first job. I wonder how many graduates today make that amount of effort?

but times have changed !

I would rather ds did a degree that mattered. When I went to uni a tiny percentage of school leavers went. The others weren't roaming the streets unemployed or claiming benefits. They were employed. Some of them did far better than those of us that went to uni.

I should add, I dont think the Government has really thought this through...

If our kids cant afford to go to uni, cant get a job and cant claim benefits what on earth will they do???

Its all very well saying they can do an apprenticeship but just how many places are there going to be? I know 2 local big companies where places on the apprenticeship scheme are very competitive already.

Going to university shouldnt be just for the rich, doesnt everyone have the right to an education? or did we just go back in time a couple of decades?

Ok, the point I was making was fairly obviously not that people with practical careers can't have academic interests. If you met my DH you'd know that was the case. And I'm certainly not having a go at people who do more practically minded jobs (although given the reading material on show in our local garage I reckon I'm on safe ground with the Donne questions!).

Instead the point I was making was that people have different skills and strengths, and that making 'Degree' a catch-all standard is no more appropriate than saying we all have to have BTECs, even if we want to be a philosopher. Some of us are academic, some of us are practically minded, some of us are good with people skills, some of us are good with logistics and organisation.

Assuming that it is completely unaffordable for EVERYONE to get a degree with state assistance, surely it makes much more sense to focus that funding so "the working class youngsters who want to study philosophy, or Eng Lit, or Mandarin" actually have a hope in hell of being able to afford it? And the working class kid (or any other bloody class) who hates essay writing and exams, and feels under intolerable pressure to study for A-levels and go to university for an 'academic' further education when they'd much rather be learning how to tend livestock or run a rock climbing centre or get a foot in the door of the fashion industry, or whatever, DOESN'T have to saddle themselves with outrageous debt by the age of 20 because there is an equally well respected alternative.

I wonder whether you will see companies sponsoring students through university in the future? If my local council hadn't funded my post grad course the company I was recruited by would have paid the fees. They funded my living expenses for the post grad year.

There seems to be a lot more pointless courses now than there were when I was at uni. I don't especially agree with tuitions fees but if it makes the academic bodies more examined and rigorous then it isn't all bad.

dotnet - I totally agree with you, I have 3 children who I will imagine will want to go to university, and it will be me and DH who has to foot some of the bill to prevent the kids from starting their lives saddled with crippling debt.

I reiterate what I said earlier, Good on the students for standing up - I think the country should be out protesting against this Goverment, not just students.

I do understand the need for cuts and change, but disagree with the way this Government is doing it.

Shame shame shame on Nick Clegg and any other Lib Dems who vote for the tuition fee rise. Remember the pledges they signed promising to cut those fees???????

I'm just about to read the thread (or some of it) having seen the demo on television. My dd went, and I think good on her. Sorry to shout, but I THINK PARENTS SHOULD ORGANISE A DEMO OF THEIR OWN - IT'S THE KIDS WHO POTENTIALLY MIGHT WANT TO GO TO UNIVERSITY FROM 2012 ONWARDS WHO ARE HAVING THEIR HIGHER EDUCATION PUT IN JEOPARDY.
What do other parents think? I'd be more than happy to take a trip to London and cause further discomfort to the government. Something must be done about this - it CAN'T be allowed to go ahead. A massive demonstration by the middle aged would give further pause for thought, no?

I would let my teen go! Its their right to protest against an unfair and unjust rise in tuition fees that punich the poor and limit education oppurtunities.

Good on all the students who protested today! Its about time the country started to stand up to this power thirsty Government.

Shame on Nick Clegg for caring more about his own position and perks that the promises he made to students - they are our future - and they will remember!

Who says your mechanic couldn't answer questions on John Donne's sexuality - have you asked them? It is possible for people to have interests outside work, you know. And I expect there are some lecturer who can fix a car. I know a (medical) doctor who can repair TVs...

Always suspect opposition to mass higher ed is really about class prejudice.'Oh no, we couldn't have the proles discussing Heidegger or string theory, what on earth would that do to property prices!'

Yes we need good apprenticeships and training for craftsmen and women and to have some respect for vocational qualifications. But let's not go back to the bad old days when universities were just for the top three per cent of school leavers. The more working class youngsters who have a grasp of philosophy, or Eng Lit, or Mandarin, or geology, or history, or engineering, the better, frankly.

Quite right.

Fellatio, totally agree.
It's so freaking unfashionable to say that not everyone should go to uni, or to in some way admit that 5 A* are better than two Ds. So we've got a bonkers situation where 1000s of youngsters travel 100s of miles across the country to spend 3 years on courses... which equip them no better for life or a career than the old diploma courses used to.

I actually think it does both academic and less academic kids a great disservice. I could no more strip an engine than my mechanic could answer questions on John Donne's sexuality, so why not let us both get letters after our name which are relevant to our skills and abilities?

I agree that further education, in its traditional, mind expanding, capacity should be available to anyone who wants it. But most 18 year olds don't want their minds expanded (not all, the academic ones still will), they want job propspects, some fun, and to leave home. It shouldn't cost £60k and 3 years of your life to do that.

Sorry to interrupt. Just seen the news about the demo. What a pity that a well-planned, orderly march was high-jacked by a minority of hot-heads - but it is hardly surprising, after all.

What is strange is that there were so few police on duty. After G20, that's very odd. And chilling what Boris Johnson said - implying that to march was a privilege (if I heard him right). I hope this is not used as an excuse to stop future marches.

Thank goodness no-one was killed this time.

OP - did your son go?

Thank you to those of you whose kids did go - hope everyone was OK. For what it's worth, I'm convinced it's worth while - and a vital right in a democracy.

End of interruption.