Britain's totally unfair tax system

What do you think ability to pay is all about then? If you rely on benefits or are a single adult dweller you get subsidies on CT. Everyone else pays according to the value of their home, so I would have though you of all people would agree that people in 'expensive' houses are 'richer' than people in cheaper houses, as a given.

Therefore they pay more based on their ability to pay. I'll be the first person to say this system is flawed, but I don't get how you think that people who are 'least able to pay' are penalised here? Are you saying that a single person who has no income and only modest savings but lives in a 2 million pound house should pay a smaller amount based on their income than someone with a £30k income but a big mortgage on a modest home, and three young children to support should pay more based on their 'ability' to pay? I'm not saying either is right or wrong - I just want to know what you think is a 'fair' way to set local tax.

Actually the state shouldn't provide all those things for everybody.

They should provide them for people who are unable to provide for themselves.

Unable, not unwilling!

I wish you well with your 'everyone must pay more tax' idea. Just don't expect folks to take to the street with 'what do we want? Higher tax bills'as their motto, that's all. just saying. End of.

Look, you've really got a bug about council tax and you are clearly not winning friends and influencing people here.

Write to your MP who might actually be able to do something. We have neither the inclination or the power.

Yeah, like, end of

Yes, I noticed that. IME people who say 'end of' as the clincher to all their arguments rarely have an intellectual grasp on anything much of note.

This thread is so funny. Someone comes on here with their really strange //// thingies (and doesn't answer people asking wtf they are supposed to be) and makes huge statements about 'Europe', which are directly, concisely and accurately contradicted in some detail by people actually living in 'Europe' (ie several different countries) who point out they DO play local taxes, and have, by the sound of it, no better services than I do, yet the OP carries on saying 'end of' like a demented Big Brother contestant. It's marvellous - do carry on!

Ivanhoe you talk rot.

The state has some part to play, however it does not need to be as large and as monolithic as the last Govt made it in the UK, and as the EU is well on the way to becoming. I want people to be able to think for themselves and help themselves and decide for themselves, not be firmly clamped to the tit of the state. The state needs to provide Defence and Education and has a part to play in providing health care and support, but it does NOT need to intrude in to our lives. It is there as a safety net, not the raison d'etre of our lives. The state is there to serve me, not me to serve the state.

Why does it matter that the UK pays less in tax? So what?

'many among the British dont seem to be aware that the EU State plays a huge role re- investment and subsidy across Europe, and that Britain lags behind here, and has done since the 80s.' Why don't you realise that many people don't want the EU, can't see that it brings many benefits, and that overall it is a drag on the UK. Many countries cope without being in the EU. Look at Switzerland for example. We know it subsidises some in the EU - look at the French and the CAP. We contribute, but we seem to get bog all back.

'Because the EU has the Social Charter, and it has Proportional Representation.'

Social charter bogaloo; stifling legislation. As for PR - that works sooo well that Belgium hasn't had a govt (again) for months, and yet it still goes on merrily. That is because the state has overtaken the role of govt. The Belgians are in shock that we got a coalition in 5 days, and they have now been wrangling since June I think for the second time in 18 months. Because there is PR and thus coalition govt here, the govt seems like humpty dumpty, constantly having a great fall.

What do you consider to be an extreme amount of money to earn Ivanhoe? In my experience people usually say things like this in relation to salaries that are anything that's double what they are on - irrespective of what the person is actually being paid for.

If people like Alouiseg and her DH are writing cheques rather that paying tax as they earn, that means they are selling a service or a product, which other people are free to buy, or not buy. Whether the price for said product is 'extreme' or not is clearly a matter for the customer to decide, and if they are paying a great deal of tax then I guess the customer must feel he is getting value for money, or he'd take his custom elsewhere. Do you think there should be a limit on how many apples a greengrocer should be allowed to sell?

Either that or they are speculating to earn money, using their own capital. Again, if they are paying a great deal of tax then they are speculating correctly. I fail to see how that could be considered extreme - they don't extort it from anyone! They could just as easily lose money as make it.

It doesn't feel like it Ivanhoe. I don't think you are differentiating between a hr tax payer and Roman Abromavich!

I'm not even sure what your point is now, Ivanhoe....how do YOU think things should be done?

Riven, yes public services are MUCH better here in MY experience. Medical care and schools are of a high standard. I have never looked at it from YOUR angle though - to know for example about provision for special needs. I know that we have to pay a an extra 25 euros each year to the Flemish region to pay for "home services" which, as I understand it, pays for assistance to disabled and elderly people at home. A lot of people DH works with were up in arms about this and refusing to pay!

I can assure you Ivanhoe that my family are most definitely overtaxed. We write obscene cheques to HMRC in January and July.

I can assure you that my family are very definitely net contributors and any attempt to wangle more money out of us will be met with a one way ticket to Hong Kong or Singapore. So that will be another family who won't be contributing to your little dream.

Every action has a reaction.........

Can you stop saying "Europe" as though it's one country please? It's not.

I don't believe in the role of the state either; why do we need a large, over bureaucratic and creaky edifice that costs a fortune to prop up and doesn't function efficiently?

As Porto says, car tax in Belgium is a case in point. In the UK, we would pay normal car tax for our two twelve year old cars. In Belgium, it costs over 2k for the pair of them, plus a supplement for each as they run on LPG. When you bring a car into the UK, you need road tax, MOT and insurance. In Belgium you need all those, plus a certificate of conformity and you pay a mise en circulation. It cost us 6k to import two cars into Belgium, both of which had already been here for two years on transit plates anyway. You can't get fully comp insurance on cars over 5 years old.

You have no idea at all Ivanhoe.

My point about the undemocratic EU (and are you happy to be paying another £200 per family for their champagne bill, and yes, they do put on large champagne receptions) is that it costs a fortune and delivers squat. If we weren't paying the EU this according to the DT:

'The UK's net transfer to EU institutions is set to rise from £6.4 billion this year to £8.3 billion in 2011-12. By 2015, it will be around £10.3 billion.'

then the deficit would be easy to reduce cuts would not have to be made.

ivanhoe. Usually on mn there is a whole raft of anti Tory feeling, yet your thread doesn't appear to have any support or agreement!

I can only put it down to your Ill informed statements and your ///////////////////////Aggressive manner///////////////

I do hope you are joking. You are joking - aren't you?