Ways of Dying in 1665

Oh yes, before I went to bed last night I was looking at the purported causative organism of the plague, Yersinia pestis to see if it was sporulating. It isn't, and therefore I don't think it's the most likely candidate for keeping library books under wraps. Anthrax is more likely - but I don't know for sure, of course!

hugglymuggly - the genetic predisposition that protects many Africans against malaria is not exactly that, it's a blood type. There is an antigen on the red blood cells (where the malarial parasite hangs out) called Duffy (short form Fy) and it facilitates the parasites entry into the blood cell. Consequently, considerably more Africans have no Duffy antigens (are Fya-b-), whereas most other populations have Fya and/or Fyb on their red cells.

HIV resistance doesn't work in the same way at all - but may be due to the immune system responding differently. It was thought that if the cytotoxic T cells get to the HIV virus first, and activate the cytotoxic immune system, HIV is usually cleared from the body. If the T cells that activate the humoral (antibody) system get to it first, then lots of not very effective antibodies are produced and the HIV virus gets to hang around. I don't know how far that theory has advanced, haven't checked it for a long while but that was in circulation at least 15 years ago as a working theory as to why some Ugandan prostitutes didn't get HIV despite repeated exposure.

sounds like witchcraft to me.
I suggest we chuck all the inhabitants in the river and see if they float.

Yes, there's another round Milan too!

I am just reading that page. Surely this can't be true! There appears to be a circle around Krakow which remained plague-free, even at the height of the outbreak. How odd.

must stop reading now and go finish my lecture for tomorrow...

Great thread though ladies!

Found this quote on stillborn babies from a book for midwives:

Item, if any childe bee dead borne, you your selfe shall see it buried in such secret place as neither Hogg nor Dogg, nor any other Beast may come unto it, and in such sort done, as it may not be found or perceived, as much as you may; and that you shall not suffer any such childe to be cast into the Jaques (privy) or any other inconvenient place. (Anon., The Book of Oaths (1649), 289)

Myth I'll PM you, yes please- thank you

Actually no, I am wrong there was another of the full genome last year - the Wikipedia page is bang up to date here

I have spent a fortune on Amazon this afternoon

Aah yes

The newest paper on the pathogen that cause the Black Death is:

Haensch, S., R. Bianucci, M. Signoli, M. Rajerison, M. Schultz, S. Kacki, M. Vermunt, D. A. Weston, D. Hurst, M. Achtman, E. Carniel, and B. Bramanti, 2010, Distinct clones of Yersinia pestis caused the Black Death, PLoS Pathogens, 6, e1001134.

PLoS one is an open source journal so you should be able to access it

Too true Sarah - but he is very jolly and enthusiastic!

R2 if you are still fascinated by the Spitalfields coffin I can, in true geek fashion, send you the new paper about her if you PM me with your email address - but only if you have absolutely nothing better to read!

Thanks for the tip re: Daniel Defoe's book on kindle Mirage - shall be tracking that down! Very useful.

Slightly tangential to extracting still born babies - I was trying recently to find examples of women who died in childbirth or pre-term on archaeological sites and there are very very few - far fewer than I would have expected given it must have happened frequently. The consensus seems to be certainly since Christianity arrived that babies were removed and not buried with the mother because they hadn't been baptised. Seems awfully sad

Haven't heard that one. I will investigate.

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread for days, so forgive me if this has already been done here, but I'm sure I'd heard somewhere, that the Black Death is not now believed to be the Bubonic Plague, but actually some other horrible virus that left as suddenly as it arrived, and hasn't been seen since? I'm off to google it in a minute, but I'm trying to watch SYTYCD eat roast dinner and MN at the same time!

It was taken orally as lead pellets or a drink (mercury also) - read it somewhere but cant find the source now.

Also used as a spermicide: Aristotle 'by annointing the part of the womb an which the seed falls with oil of cedar, or with ointment of lead or frankensense, comingled with olive oil.'

Soreanus (sic!) " It also aids in preventing conception to smear the orifice of the uterus all over before with olive oil or honey or cedar resin or juice of the balsam tree, alone or together with white lead; or with a moist cerate containing myrtle oil and white lead; or before the act with moist alum, or with galbanum together with wine; or to put a lock of fine wool into the orifice of the uterus; or before sexual relations to use vaginal suppositories which have the power to contract and to condense. For such things are styptic, clogging and cooling cause the orifice of the uterus to shut before the time of coitus and do not let seed pass into its fundus."

Yeuck - thank goodness for the pill!

Yes, she had several more pregnancies, but miscarried them all. She blamed it on Catherine of Aragon cursing her, and said that her next baby after Catherine had died would be healthy, but by that point Henry was just trying to get rid of her, so she never had the chance.

He has a beard, Myth.

ScatterChasse, interesting. She was supposed to have miscarried at one point I think too after Elizabeth.

Incidentally if anyone is thinking about a holiday to Crete, then you can visit the abandoned leper colony on Spinalonga Island. Horribly sad place.

Yes, geekiness is a big tent.

Wow, just wow at this thread! I'm gripped by it :)

Unfortunately don't have anything to add to it but absolutely loving reading all the fascinating things on it. Have added lots of books to my amazon wish list and have lots of diseases to have a good google of.

MNHQ please move this to Classics, so many mines of information on here!

That's fascinating about the plague giving immunity to HIV to some degree amongst Europeans.

By the way, did you know that John of Gaunt was actually a Belgian? He was born in Ghent, and the Ghent bit was corrupted to Gaunt. So now, when someone says "Name a famous Belgian", you can say "Actually I can!" (apart from the tennis girls obv)

They think Anne Boleyn might have been Rhesus -ve (or +ve, whichever Henry wasn't!) and that's why her first (Elizabeth) was the only one to survive.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but never mind:

Jericho - I have heard that there is an hypothesis that different infection rates of HIV between European and African populations might be because of a side-effect from the plague ? in that those Europeans who had the genetic predisposition to either not be infected at all or had milder versions and survived, might have passed on a genetic predisposition to resist infection by HIV. I think that's speculative, but there is a kind of mirror situation of African populations being genetically predisposed to counter malaria.

I do like your post about the cultural aspects of death affecting the living. There's a gap between history and science as taught in most schools/university, but there's a lot to learn from the conjunction of those two subjects.

I also think this thread needs to be moved somewhere else so it doesn't disappear, because this is a fascinating thread. I've often wished there was a "Science" area, because there are loads of knowledgeable/interested people here. To avoid cries of "Oh, no, not yet another topic!", I'd suggest that perhaps "Geeky Stuff" could be renamed to something like "Geeky and Science Stuff". I think that many people associate "geeky" with computery-type stuff, but geekiness goes beyond that.

Mirage . You have very good taste. Its a fabulous name. And an excellent Patrick Wolf song too.