Further maths A level - should I post in this section?

@JaninaDuszejko

You post confirms that it is important to consider Uni course requirements when looking at A-levels.

Medicine often requires Chemistry + 1 science - so as a 3rd you can take Art -(or PE, at least for some unis). But Medicine
is really competitive, and Art will put you at disadvantage vs kids with Maths, or another science. And PE will be considered to have overlapping content with Biology, so some unis wont accept that.

and Maths and FM are requited for many STEM subjects. However - if applying for competitive humanities courses - at some unis they won’t be considered as two separate A-levels - and you’ll need to have Maths + two essay based humanities subjects.

So - it all depends on the path your child is likely to go. And selecting a combination that keeps options open.

Art and PE are accepted as 'proper A levels' by RG universities, e.g. a friend of DD is doing art, biology, chemistry and is applying for medicine and has two interviews already. If she wants to do a science degree then she needs two STEM subjects but that includes maths, physics, chemistry, biology, geography, PE, psychology. Please check the websites of the universities she is interested in and see what their requirements are because some are pickier, e.g. Durham wants maths for a chemistry degree. But MN has a lot of nonsense and snobbery about 'proper' A levels.

As far as doing maths and FM goes, DD got a (solid) 8 in maths at GCSE, didn't have the option of FM GCSE, and is doing FM at college. Their requirements are an 8 or 9 in maths for A level but they look at all the GCSE grades to make sure they are solid in STEM. Our colleges does the two subjects in parallel rather than sequentially, which suits the kids better because if they struggle with FM they can drop out at any time and will still be sitting 3 A levels in Y13 (they can sit AS level FM in Y12 if they want to drop out so lots of options).

Your DD needs three A Levels. Some unis will want two science/maths but not many courses require 3. I have a student this with a Cambridge interview from bio chem and PE.

I wonder if you’re trying to find a situation where she doesn’t close any doors - it’s just not possible. Maths, a science and a practical is a great mix. She can start FM and drop if it’s too hard - she would just join the normal maths class at that point.

Also, FM is a full A level. There is no uni that requires FM + 3 other a levels.

Not event experience, but I only got an A at GCSE but got As in 13 maths modules at Alevel (before A*) because the small group, enthusiasm of the class and more interesting subject matter suited me much better than GCSE. Idid need to work my arse off though. Give it a try, she can always do down to single if it's too much. I hate people who try to tell (especially girls) that maths will be too hard for them.

@furthermaths
Your DD needs 3 academic A-levels for any university. PE or food tech wont count.
Art will count for many degrees, but not STEM.

So - yea, following the passion is great. But one also needs to think practically - as your DD will need to pick uni subject to apply for in the summer after first year of A-levels.
Problem with taking hard A-levels, like Maths/FM, science And Art is that she’ll be spreading herself too thin, and as a result not achieve the grades she is capable of.
So - you need some thinking behind the choice of A-levels.

For eg:
…take Maths/Art it you think architecture
…Take FM - if thinking engineering, other STEM or economics
…etc

Practical A-levels are great in principle - but she needs to realise that choices may impact what she can apply fo.

Alternatively - and this is what some of my DD ‘s friends do was take 3 academic Alevels, apply for deferred entry, do their ‘passion’ during gap year - language, art, etc.

I don't know if you are saying she would be doing biology, chemistry, maths and further maths, or something like art, food tech or pe. Lots of options there. What is she interested in?

I think lots of STEM courses ask for 2 sciences. Maths is included as a science. I don't know if PE would be. Chemistry seems to be quite an important one for a lot of sciences, including medicine. Maybe something like maths, fm, chemistry, art?

My DD did further maths. She is very bright and hard working but I wouldn't say she has a particular love of maths. She enjoyed the small class size and the fact that she felt very stretched.

Let us not collectively try to find reasons to dissuade the OP's daughter from giving FM a go. She likes maths and seems to be good at it.

At this stage, for example, she may not be thinking of a maths degree but her ambitions might shift and focus during sixth form. Most maths depts are interested in maths performance, will be attracted to a candidate offering FM even if most applicants do not have it, and couldn't care less about the third or fourth subjects, except in terms of grade.

My only concern about Art in the mix as a fourth A level would be the potential time sink of that subject. If Art or PE were in a mix of Maths, FM and, say, Economics or Psychology or Geography or a science, then dropping FM would not leave them 'high and dry' as some seem to fear.

My daughter took FM, in a class dominated by boys, and was initially much less confident than the boys. However, she was the tortoise who gradually overtook the hares - so don't overthink that aspect. She was creative but actually chose to pursue that side as a hobby - another option to consider if concerns about Art and PE persist.

I have a girl in my FM group who is doing art. She's looking to go into architecture I think.

If she enjoys maths and has support she will be fine. DD did Maths, FM and Physics and Chemistry and enjoyed them all (as did DS).

@furthermaths

Personally - I don’t know anyone who is capable (and would be interested) in doing maths+FM + any of those choices you mention. Maybe Art. The other 2 I have not heard of as A-level choices.

I guess the question is - what does she want to do in Uni? Art/maths combination can be useful for architecture path. Otherwise - if she wants to do something creative in Art, she can of course take Maths, but FM is a lot of hard work and she won’t need it.

The ONLY reason to take FM is if she wants to apply to STEM degrees. And IF she does, she needs to take other science A-levels. Food tech, PE or Art wont count as A-levels for those degrees in any university.

IMC is quite a bit harder than FM after adjusting for knowledge required. So not getting a gold is far from a bad sign, especially if he hasn't studied for them (many of those getting gold have studied)

If you share her other choices we can likely give more rounded advice on the impact of dropping FM - some schools can give slightly odd advice about what subjects are good for university etc.

Her grades and ability sound absolutely fine. It’s intense, doing that much maths, and it’s a little intimidating as everyone doing FM is aiming v high, but also good because you’re in a class with other great mathematicians. My son’s college do the “a level in y12 and further maths content in y13”. It’s a v high speed pace, eg they’d cover one full topic in the 8 lessons over one week, then on to the next one, whereas the “normal” way would be to cover that one topic in 4 lessons one week and 4 the next. So there’s more time for things to sink in. Over half of the FM students from the start of y12 dropped out, fairly early on. The college recommended gcse 8 or above, but did allow grade 7 if they were v close with good references. A school that says definitely 8 and ideally 9 would probably have fewer dropouts but I don’t know at all.

What are the three and why do you think it would limit unis?

@furthermaths
One important consideration - if she likes maths, she may want to do a STEM subject at Uni (say engineering ), or economics. All of those require FM.

Yes, FM is harder at A-levels. But Maths*Further Maths do have a certain overlap and are not two fully different A-levels.
Also - you don’t need to be good at maths challenges to do well in FM.

IF she decided to apply for a pure maths degree in Oxbridge - then, it’d be an issue, but not otherwise.

Finally - she can always drop FM, if her school lets them start with 4 A-levels. Or - switch before autumn halfterm - as many of them allow.

She doesnt get gold on maths challenges and I wondered if those kids were the ones who do best at FM

I just looked up the intermediate maths challenge results of the strongest Further Mathematician I've ever taught, an easy A* and Cambridge, and they only got a silver on the maths challenge.

Sounds like she has all the attributes needed to do it ( so did my son!) I feel that for my two kids it was the schools and the teaching. My son was at a grammar, it was expected of him, he was incredibly bright, ended up being put of maths ( and education) for life!
For my dd, also at a grammar school, she was always told she wasn’t the brightest,so couldn’t do add maths etc.. when she got her 8 in her GCSE single maths she was told she couldn’t do A level further maths!! So she left the grammar school and went to the sixth form of our local comprehensive, where they did allow her to do maths and further maths. Where she flew!
@furthermaths I think you’re over thinking this, she’s a young adult, support her when she needs it, but let her try if she wants to. None of us know how we’ll react to a situation until we’re in it.

Further Maths A level is harder.

But it’s not creative like the challenges. If you are a solid mathematician, you can revise techniques and do very well.

But, like all Maths, it is a balance between native ability and work. Some people will have to work much harder to achieve well.

It is difficult but there's nothing to suggest there that she wouldn't be able to cope with it. We would always advise that someone who wants to do Further Maths A-level start with four subjects and then if they don't like it or can't manage it, they have the option to drop it. She should definitely give it a go if she's interested.

I think as well, it’s worth asking how the school teaches them together. Most schools I know teach the whole of maths A level in year 12 and then FM in year 13. Therefore for some, it’ll be the pace that is the issue rather than the content. If they drop out in the first half term they won’t have actually done any FM, just normal maths at twice the speed!

For example, my ds got a 9 at maths gcse but didn’t take FM as he knew the pace wouldn’t suit him. He’s studying physics at Uni and is coping with the maths element fine having just done A level maths (he got an A).

My dd did both maths and FM GCSEs (9 in both) and is doing maths and FM a-levels. She likes the pace. They’ve already covered the whole of 1st year maths. I think she would have been bored if she was just doing maths and what they’ve done in less than a term was spread over the whole year!