Language teachers (particularly German) - Advice needed on A Level vs International A Level German and which "option" would be best for DD going forward.

Hey @EverythingSortsEventua11y thanks for the update.
Interesting that her German may have been better than her English – of course if that were still the case, the advantage to her doing German A level would probably be outweighed by possible issues with English-speaking subjects (like history). Hopefully not a problem now tho?

The cultural references from me relate to the topics studied at A level. I have said this on other threads but in total honesty, I personally would not be able to walk into an equivalent exam in English and do well. The speaking exam requires the student to speak in detail about one of 12 topics – including quoting recent relevant stats and opinions, of their own and others, reflecting on the issues raised and showing a good understanding of the topic. So the topics include (German – this is AQA btw) integration, immigration, the reunification, German art and architecture, Germany and the EU, politics and youth – i find it unlikely that she covered these issues in school by the age of 13. I couldn't quote stats and offer cogent opinion on those sorts of issues in relation to the UK without doing quite a bit of research and reading. I have lived here all my life and am a news junkie, but I don't off the top of my head know stats about who voted for Brexit and why, or how many migrants came to the UK last year and from where (to pick two similar UK-centric topics).

So I would think there would be a fair bit of factual topic material for her to cover relating to Germany and German-speaking countries (it's also the basis of the reading and listening exam). And she also has to prep a research project for the speaking exam, which will certainly be new learning and work. That's not usually done until year 13 and I am not pretending that it normally takes up the bulk of the lesson time even there, but still it is work she would need to do.

Anyway all the best to her whatever you decide. Sounds as tho she is a dedicated student who will do really well.

@clary
This issue is still causing numbers to drop though as it’s widely perceived as a problem. On MN I notice dc doing MFL are widely dc of parents who have non GB passports and they always say their dc are already fluent in more than one MFL when looking at uni choices. Most people looking at MFLs think the playing field is uneven and the grade boundaries are tough. So MFLs are increasingly avoided by comps where fewer dc have parental advantages. Many language assistants I’ve encountered are mums earning a bit of money and want a term time job to suit their families. Then they take Dc “home” for the hols.

It’s not entirely detailing! It’s about MFLs!

Sorry for thread derail @EverythingSortsEventua11y

I didn’t say there were no native speakers who taught MFL. I know one so that’s not none. I know a lot who aren’t tho. So extrapolating from that, most DC don’t have a native speaker parent who teaches A level and takes them to the country every summer. Your DC knew one - that one person will not affect the GBs and will not have stopped your DC getting the best grade they could. Nothing gained from envying the advantages others have.

I think it’s a great thing to have MFL language assistants btw tho IME they are not usually parents of 18yos.

@clary most candidates are not applying to elite universities though. The ones who are very much advantaged do. There are many teachers from Spain, France and Germany. Certainly language assistants too. In many schools I’m aware of.

OK yes if a parent is a native speaker and also teaches A level then I agree that child will have an advantage. That's fairly niche tho. I know a lot of MFL teachers (obvs) and I can only think of one native speaker (out of maybe 30-40). So this won't be a high % of students. But in any case, yunno, as I said, all kinds of DC (inc yours I am sure) will have had all kinds of advantages.

I mean the A level teacher-parent can teach about the Wiedervereinigung (German is GREAT) but tbh the DC will learn that at school, so no big advantage. My point about the cultural and social topics is that most 16-18yos don’t know that stuff, however good their German is, so they need to learn it. So there is some work for the OP’s DD to do - and YP who think they can just wing it in their exams bc they used to live in Germany (I have seen this believe me) can come a massive cropper.

The culture reference is what dc can gain by being semi immersed in another culture for 18 years whereas other dc get a week or two. Therefore parents from another country can, and do, teach the culture and if the parent is a teacher, they will know to teach about the Berlin Wall. They won’t just be teaching the spoken word. Of course they are able to increase cultural understanding beyond any standard parent and average school.

Most people believe top grades are harder to come by in MFLs due to this type of background and I’ve known many disillusioned by it, even at grammar schools.

OK well that YP did have an advantage for sure. My DC also had many advantages in so many ways over some DC. I am not sure how far you want universities to dig into backgriound but I don't think it would be a profitabel procedure.

Others are not marked more harshly. There is no need to be native speaker standard to gain top marks in A level MFL. That is explicitly stated in the spec. If you gain the marks for an A star you will get it. It's not a competition. If it were, the GBs for German (taken by far fewer students, therefore (it's fair to assume) a higher % of native speakers) would be higher than for French or Spanish, but in fact this year the GB for A in German A level was lowest in German, and for an A star it was 351 German, 349 Spanish, 360 French. If you score 365/400 you will get an A star. It makes no difference if a native gains 399/400. And if they do, they will have worked hard for it.

What was the ref to speaking vs culture?

@clary Yes - a family I know. Yes I consider it an unfair advantage. I would say the dc does need to be bright enough to gain from the vast input but others cannot replicate it and are marked harshly. I do consider teachers dc have lots of advantage in other subjects too, notably maths. Dc are more impressive who do it without help!

Universities could dig deeper into background if they wished. My point was they don’t bother. The best universities want the best candidates and don’t filter out anyone as suggested above.

Physics at school isn’t the same as engineering.

Sorry, very easily what? Very easily get a high grade in German A level?

I wonder how many teens are in the position of having parent teaching German, being half German and spending all summer in Germany? Or is that a YP you know who in your view had an unfair advantage?

Any A level teacher (I mean of any subject)can coach their DC in the nuances for the A level exam (or the GCSE ofc). It's not really possible to filter out those kinds of "unfairnesses" IMHO. I am genuinely not sure where you would draw the line. Is a chef allowed to support their child's food tech prep? How about an engineer with physics?

Thinking of YP I have worked with, I have known a range across even that small sample, in that many of them were native speakers to some extent, but there was still a big variation in attainment, predicated on various factors (including innate ability level, how much input from country/parent, how much work they did). I don’t know how I would say “this student with a German parent who only speaks TL to them has an unfair advantage, but this one, who only lived in Germany until they were 10, has not”.

What do you mean when you ask why I separate speaking from culture? I mean I don't, not really. It is perhaps the speaking exam that often gives the biggest boost to a native speaker (often literally in terms of confidence) but for A level that exam is all about the culture, politics and social issues of the country or countries where the language is spoken.

@clary Very easily if the parent teaches German and the dc is half German and spends all summer, every summer in Germany! Why do you separate speaking from culture? Of course a German mum teaching German A level can coach dc in the nuances needed for the exam. It’s too easy for them and patently unfair.

I looked at your reference and tbf it suggests that the issue is very specific to certain courses in certain universities, and even then I am not sure that it is a problem.

Only 14 universities surveyed by that piece of research have a policy on the issue at all; of those, 8 welcome native speaker A levels and 5 say they usually accept them. So we are talking about two universities – and even then the most clear statement is “[f]or some courses, we may not be able to accept a language qualification designed for non-native speakers when presented by a native speaker” – well if the OP's DD took A level German, that's not (as the research states) designated as being for a non-native speaker anyway. Honestly I don't see how it can be an issue. As I said, I have worked with a "native speaker" student (more than one actually) who has ended up at a good university with three A levels inc their native language.

@EverythingSortsEventua11y I asked DD (who took A level French, not a native speaker tho her mum is an MFL specialist!) what she thought, and she said surely even a strong linguist would have plenty to learn in terms of topic work (I mean how many 16yos have a decent working knowledge of the issues and debate around the fall of the Berlin Wall – and 11 other topics?) and in terms of prepping her IRP.

If I were you and her, I would steer her towards taking the German A level at the same time as her other quals, maybe not attending lessons in language, or attending but working on something else in those lessons such as her IRP, and using the relevant lessons on topic work to support her. She could do an EPQ as well if she feels that she is not busy enough.

I did provide a recent reference but it's good news if this is no longer the case. As the reference I quoted says; young people who have parents in a profession relevant to their studies or who have had years of private music lessons are not considered to have an unfair advantage.

@AudiobookListener The universities do not care! Dc we know got into Oxford to study German - mother a German and a teacher and educated DC in German from a toddler! German spoken at home. They just take the best. You only need 2 other A levels!

DD is bilingual in French and went to Warwick. I don’t remember anyone asking if she was bilingual at any point when it came to her results. (She did IB.)

My cousin is completely bilingual and managed to get a D in his A level German, so nothing should be assumed!

Sorry OP I said I would post again having looked at the spec and I haven't. Will look today.

I take others’ point that maybe she should do a fourth A level if German would be so easy (I am impressed that it is btw – she must be very able, even with living in Germany for 10 years). The fourth I suggest as much as a challenge for her as anything else.

But I do wonder why @PinkChaires and others say universities would not accept her A level in German? Do we have references for this?

How would a uni know she was a native speaker anyway? It's not as tho anything would give this away. A German surname would not mean it to be the case after all.

This is what Warwick says on the subject:
If a native language is being studied this will be considered equally alongside other A Levels, providing these are all taken within the usual 2 year period and, where applicable, essential subjects are being studied.

Maybe Warwick means that you need to take three other A levels – but tbh that's not how I read it. I would (genuinely) be interested to see evidence for the claim that unis will not accept her German A level.

I worked with a student who was to some extent (and it is only ever to some extent tbh) a native speaker in that they had lived in a German-speaking country for several years. Their language skills were good but not native speaker level. They got in to Birmingham with the MFL "native speaker" A level and two others, no probs.

OP its really important that you check with universities ( if thats the goal) that they will accept her a level German. Loads will not because she is essentially a native.

This paper suggests that while many unis would accept a MFL A level from a native/heritage speaker others wouldn't. With decision-making sometimes at course rather than institution level. It certainly looks as if your DCs best bet is to find out the situation for whatever next step she is considering.

www.lspjournal.com/post/rethinking-language-qualifications-in-the-uk-university-admission-process-the-case-of-native-vs-non

But at the moment some unis may conclude she is in effect only doing two A Levels. She's really closing off her options. Poor girl has been badly advised by school I think they should know this.

She needs to urgently check with potential unis if they will accept German A Level from someone who is effectively a native speaker (and has the iGCSE to prove it!). They may feel that she's not really having the full intellectual challenge of 3 A Levels.

The native speaker A Level seems a risk if he teachers aren't familiar with it and the literature ahe would need to study. Again, she should check anyway about acceptability at unis.

Personally, I think she'd get the same skills from English lang/lit/lang+lit without the risks. Bottom line is she needs to demonstrate capability to meet the full intellectual challenge of 3 A Levels.

What does she want to study at University? If she is effectively a native German speaker I would suggest that doing German A Level won’t give her the credibility that an alternative subject would and universities may not give any additional credit for “International” A Level German. Why doesn’t she take a fourth A Level alongside the three she is doing?

Option 2, and pursue a certification from the Goethe Institute as well. C1 if she wants to focus elsewhere. If she wants to stick with those three, then a C2 will be very challenging