Further Maths as third A level

Did you check that still applied if one of the subjects was FM? It’s more usual, I think, for schools to say 3 except if one is FM.

Both my sons did 4 A levels with FM. Ds1 had 5 hours for each subject and Ds2 had 4 1/2 hours.

If they took FM then the children were in a different stream to the normal A level maths group. The grade required was a 7 but both of mine got mid grade 9s. They spent year 12 studying the entire 2 years of A level maths as they had a timetabled slot for "maths" and one labelled "further maths" to show the different teachers. They sat AS maths paper before Christmas as they had finished that content. They started FM in year 12 as the cohort was able to.

If they struggled with maths in year 12 they could move over to the normal slower paced A level maths stream. About half did.

Ds's day started at 8.30 and he had a 2 hour slot for the first subject, then hourly slots and finished at 3.20. His timetable also included 5 hours for free periods, a 1 hour assembly, a 1 hour tutorial (like form time sort of) also 2 hours "enrichment" on a Wednesday afternoon. Each subject had 5 hours of contact time (teaching) per week and Ds finished a lot of his work in class or in his frees. He hardly ever needed to do work at home.

He used his free periods to work on homework and they had a little study group because they all wanted high grades.

No doubt @noblegiraffe who teaches maths and further maths will agree, if your child is used to acing maths easily for GCSE and they struggle at A level they need to recognise when they need to ask for help or do extra work to help them understand what they are doing. Lots were unused to asking and then it starts to slide. So instead of just accepting you got a C grade on the end of topic test, you acknowledge where you went wrong and you circle back to it later to make sure the concept is now cemented in your head. You retest yourself. At DC's sixth form teachers were available every day for 30 minutes at the end of the day for guidance. However, some students will just go home or leave the site in their frees, or piss around on their phones rather than using their time productively.

I can imagine sixth forms and colleges saying three A levels are recommended, rather than doing four. However, of those also offering FM, did they say 'do three but, if you are considering FM, the FM should be selected as a fourth'? That would certainly be the position across state sixth forms and colleges in our area.

My DS1 did Maths, Further Maths and Physics and it was Physics that he really struggled with. My DS2 is doing Maths, Further Maths and Computer Science and is actually predicted a better grade in Further Maths (A) than in Maths (B).

When DS1 started university (studying Engineering) he found that he was way ahead of his peers in first year. I did a Maths degree with only A level Maths and, while Further Maths may have been useful, it definitely wasn’t necessary.

Some schools recommend only doing three A levels as it’s better to have three really good grades rather than, potentially, four with the top three not quite so good.

One thing that might help your son is that the A level Maths syllabus builds on areas already covered at GCSE whereas Further Maths tends to build on itself. So it’s really important to hit the ground running and do the extra reading so that you can keep up as you move on to the next topic. It’s also worth looking at which areas they will be studying. My DS2 loves Pure Maths but doesn’t get on so well with the Applied topics.

Our local schools and colleges (attended 5 open days) all said 3 A level options only were recommended. Consequently we are dropping further maths as it feels like too much similarity when also choosing maths and economics.

Very few oxbridge maths or engineering students will have only 3 a levels. Look at the actual ucas points successful applicants have

My DD, who is off to uni to study maths, breezed GCSE maths. Her school didn’t offer GCSE further maths. She found A-level further maths a bit a shock during the first term of year 12 but after that seemed to settle into it and has loved y13 further maths despite it being another step up from the year 12 content. She’s doing 4 A-levels but to be honest she hardly counts maths A-level because doing further maths has made ‘normal’ maths seem so easy. I’d recommend starting with 4 and not being disheartened if the first term of FM is tough.

My kids school did this as an experiment,

it went very very badly.

nobody made it to the exam.

The 'success gradient' with Maths and FM is steep ie on average, you need higher grades at GCSE to be likely to secure a good outcome at A level. FM is stretching; the clue, after all, is in the word 'Further'.

However, I think we need to be careful not to be too deterministic or rigid about prior GCSE grades. My DC secured 8s at Maths GCSE but both went on to achieve solid As in FM (as fourth subjects) and enjoyed the experience along the way. By contrast, a number of '9 with FM GCSE Maths as well' students hit a wall in Y12 with FM and dropped it.

So a lot depends on whether you are accelerating into your maths potential or perhaps someone who found GCSE maths easy without really trying and actually your maths 'ceiling' is lurking just around the corner.

All this uncertainty means it is foolish to start FM as a third subject, because there is no effective plan B. If all is going swimmingly in Y12 regards FM, then a different fourth subject can be dropped. Someone capable of doing FM should be able to cope with four subjects in Y12.

Eeekkk. Dd1 got a 9 in gcse maths. Has struggled with a level but predicted and A.

dd2 got a 9 in maths and an 8 in FM but 5 marks off a 9. She doesn’t seem to be struggling and consistently highest marks in class. I hope this is enough for her…

One of my DC chose the same subjects along with Chemistry. Was adamant that maths was their thing and got 9s at GCSE maths/further maths along with consistently getting through to the higher rounds of UKMT competitions.

Found A-Level Further Maths incredibly hard - it was several steps up, even from A-Level Maths. Fortunately with good teaching and timetabling they did really well but it was a massive shock to someone who had coasted through all maths up until Y12. At one point was considering a Chemistry degree as they enjoyed that far more in 6th Form than they had previously.

So yes, those three A-Levels are perfectly fine for a maths degree but adding a 4th, even for a year, keeps some options open a little longer.

Whatever the school says, you need a 9 to do further maths. It is a very strange A Level in that it’s hard to be “quite good” at it. Most kids who get a 7 or 8 in a subject at GCSE have a decent shot at a B or even A at A Level. Not Further Maths. It stretches the most capable kids, and if you’ve not quite nailed the GCSE syllabus, it’s very unlikely you will get a top grade.

I’m pretty sure - but I am going to check - they need an 8 to do further maths - I just accepted it at the time but after reading this thread it does sound batshit

Thanks for positing.

DS is considering 4 a levels.

Maths, chemistry and economics. Really wants to do Further Maths as the 4th - I'm just conscious of the work load.

Opinions may vary 😀

Dd is doing maths, FM and eco. She started off with geography but dropped it at Christmas. She loved human geography but hated physical geography. She is planning to do eco at uni. I worry she has limited her subject choice some what. She is in y12. My y13 has done the opposite doing 4 completely unrelated a levels and an epq. From the sublime to the ridiculous!

Back to the OP’s question If DS found he didn’t like Further Maths would he be unlikely to be able to cope with a maths degree?

I think it depends on how it’s taught, that is on how many lessons per week. If he doesn’t like it because it’s going too fast, on the same lesson allocation as he’d have for single Maths, and he’s getting lost, then there’s an argument that he might be OK with a Maths degree - but not at Oxford or Cambridge.

However, if he doesn’t like the work in itself, then he probably wouldn’t enjoy a Maths degree. In my opinion.

@NumberTheoryIsTheQueenOfMathematics nice username, but I think you’ll find that combinatorics is the empress of mathematics, and set theory the goddess

I’m currently tutoring a student, new to the school in y12, who started with Maths, F Maths and Physics. She really wasn’t coping with F Maths but fortunately she lived in a European country until leaving primary school, so has picked up the MFL from that country instead.

Most students won’t have that option, so I strongly support the idea of starting with 4 A levels if one is FM.

Is your DS wanting to get into oxbridge? (Reguardless of if he does or not ) I’d say these are good ALevels to have.
My Dc did maths/ physics/ chemistry and further maths. Dropped further maths after a year and did 3 a levels and an epq. Everything is doable depends where he wants to go.

Be wary of the motives of schools in giving subject-choice advice if it's possibly in their interest rather than your DCs.

In my school's case it is absolutely in the interest of the students to start with 4! We've had students who thought they knew better and it hasn't always ended well.

DS did Maths, Physics and Further Maths 'A' Levels knowing he wanted to study Electronic Engineering at Uni. His school (v competitive boys Grammar) encouraged all doing Further Maths to take a 4th subject. We initially thought this was in case the Further Maths proved too challenging. After 2 terms of Further Maths going swimmingly, and the tacked-on 4th subject (Business Studies) failing to capture his interest, he requested to drop it and we had a devil of a job getting the school to agree - mainly it transpired because it's better for their stats to have pupils capable of achieving good results in 4 A levels to take 4 A levels. After much wrangling and debate, and us practically having to insist he was allowed to focus solely on Maths, F Maths and Physics - he had offers from all 5 of his UCAS applications for Engineering with no questions asked about his A Level choices, and completed MEng at York where the Further Maths was hugely beneficial. Be wary of the motives of schools in giving subject-choice advice if it's possibly in their interest rather than your DCs.

Honestly, no. Because there are people who are firmly committed to getting to grips with Further Maths who are not really suited to it and because they can't drop it as are only on 3 end up with a poor grade that affects their uni choices.

I've also seen a fully committed student who wouldn't be told that they needed a 4th end up realising that they'd made a terrible mistake when they got poor grades at the end of Y12 and ended up having to restart Y12 with different subjects as that was their only option.

As someone with Further Maths - I’d suggest starting with a broader range than that.

A level and degree maths is different to gcse maths - and if he doesn’t like it he’s massively limited with his options.

Do something in addition for the first year that he enjoys.