Further Maths as third A level

Looking at the results of A level FM at my local single sex non super-selective grammars, the girls school have 65% getting A star and 85% Astar and A. No one got below a B. 50% A star, 70% Astar and A at the boys school. 50% more boys took the subject there though. I tend to think dc know where they stand at maths. The candidates definitely self-select to take FM and my guess is they have awareness of their ability and so does the school. It’s not a subject to be taken lightly but good teachers will know if DD is an able candidate. For both schools FM results are in top 3 for their A level stats.

If it’s a punt, I’d definitely do 4. If DD excels at maths - and don’t we all know a dc is one of the best at maths - it’s a subject where results are very high and I think that’s borne out nationally.

Agreed @ErrolTheDragon. I think the other aspect to consider is the 'concurrent vs sequential' approach to teaching M/FM.

Someone very able may suit and prefer the sequential approach but there are risks, particularly if Maths A-level is taken at the end of Y12. The Maths A-level has to be taught in two terms and you may 'undershoot' and get, say, a high A but not a hoped for Astar; you also do not have much exposure to Further Maths until Y13, only then to find perhaps you have hit your ceiling.

In addition, some institutions appear to adopt a 'brute force' approach with high barriers to entry and then early exposure to harder concepts, at pace, to force out those who might simply need time to adjust to FM in the autumn of Y12. This is not always in the student's interests even if 'simplifying' for the institution.

I'm finding this talk of colleges making students doing Further Maths start with 3 alarming!

I really wish that Gove hadn't decoupled the AS and starting with 4 was still the norm. It's helpful for those taking Maths A-level too, to have the option to drop if it goes badly.

My DS did maths, FM , physics , economics and found it fine.

Thinking about this, seems to me that in general, kids who are good enough at maths that doing 3 A levels inc FM isn’t risky probably won’t it an onerous a workload and so should be allowed to do 4 for breadth and keeping more options open.
And the ones who turn out to struggle with FM really need to have started that extra subject.

which makes me think that colleges who discourage starting 4 are concerned a bit more about timetabling and budgetary constraints rather than what’s in the students best interests.

@PerpetualOptimistThank you! That’s a good idea to ask about drop out rates.
Her maths teachers have assured her and us that she will love the challenge of further maths, but you never know!

She loves the problem solving/
seeing patterns side of maths and likes a challenge. She decided she wanted to complete everything on the homework MathsWatch thing they have so did that just because she enjoyed it…

She either wants to go in to engineering or really would like to go on and do maths at uni as she just loves it. She finds random maths things to do as a break from other revision for GCSEs.

We’ll definitely revisit the conversation with her and sixth forms though, so I’m glad this thread was started and grateful for everyone’s input!

@CrochetMadRosie It might be worth asking the sixth form (where you/your DD are already known) whether they can provide figures showing number of students each year, for the last three years, starting with FM as a third subject and the drop out rate amongst that group. It will also lead to a discussion about what your DDs options would be, say at the end of Y12, if FM does not work out. The risk is all with the student, not the institution, as they are left high and dry with just 2 A Levels and a less straightforward subsequent path.

The big traps for the unwary, as I see it (as a parent, not a teacher), is that the 'mathematically gifted coasters' arrive in Y12 FM with no real experience of having to graft, practise and consolidate; coming towards the bottom in tests is a new experience and is too much for some, who crash and burn. My DC were the tortoises in their FM sets and there were a fair few hares who did not make it to the end of the race.

The other potential trap, as @evelynevelyn points out, is not realising that A level FM is a very different beast to GCSE Maths. A lot of it is about concepts, logic and pattern spotting; it is not 'more arithmetic'. For one of my DC, the more abstract FM became, the better their relative performance. For the other DC, Pure Maths was not as enjoyable but they were a fiend at Further Statistics and that saved the day. Both did M and FM concurrently, with FM as a fourth; this was a much better way for them to 'grow into' their FM, neither having made it to the top Maths sets in their comp in the lead up to GCSE.

In my case, I found that Further Maths went from being fairly easy to impossible about half way through. It was like I’d hit the limit of my conceptual ability and from then on had to just memorise things.

I’d advise taking four A-levels.

This is all really interesting- thanks all.

DD is going for maths, further maths and physics too for September.

Both sixth forms she looked at strongly discouraged her from starting with 4 A-levels.
One is a STEM college where they do A-level maths in one year and then further maths the second year.
The other is the sixth form at her current school where they do both concurrently.

Perhaps we need to revisit that conversation… both said that she could do 4 if that’s what she really wanted, but also made it quite clear that they wouldn’t advise it.

Getting an offer from Cambridge for maths is not that hard, because the STEP paper is the thing that separates the wheat from the chaff with around 50% failing to get the required grade. The interview does not assume FM knowledge
My DS studied maths at Cambridge having never got through to the next round of maths challenge. They don't care about that stuff!

Total maths genius. School have had him in sixth form maths classes since Year 7. 😁

He must be impressively good if he’s self teaching and got a trinity offer!

My daughter is fuming that to do higher maths, she has to do Maths! So she's now thinking about just doing maths as she wants to do physics, Spanish and economics.

Relative of mine has an offer for Cambridge (trinity) for maths. He’s having to teach himself FM at A level as the school said they couldn’t fit it in the timetable! One thing he did to help with his application was the maths Olympiad

My neighbour’s DS did M,P and FM. Read maths at Exeter. No 4th subject. Often a 4th isn’t asked for and it’s not necessary at all. For maths, it’s grades at maths. FM is better for maths students. No uni normally offers a place based on 4 A levels. Those who consider economics or engineering might benefit from 4 including FM but universities will tell you if FM is not considered as a 3rd A level. So check what each course says about which A levels, how many and step tests. Many don’t ask for step at all.

If he doesn't like Futher Maths why on earth would be want to do a Mathematics degree

Perfect combo. Chemistry at the end would work best

At my son's school a student can only do FM as a fourth subject. They require grade 9 maths and grade 8 further maths at GCSE.

Even with these limitations they still drop 75% of the FM class at the end of the first term if they aren't able to keep up. It's ruthless. The maths/FM students at DS' school tend to do philosophy and ethics or economics as their fourth because it gives them an essay subject.

Generally further maths is an extra. Definitely start with four - lots of students (I’m a teacher) find it tough and drop it.

Thank you very much to the teachers and more experienced mums posting - it’s really interesting and useful information . I was quietly uneasy about my son’s school’s approach . He’s on the edge of 8/9 for his GCSE so sounds like I might be right to keep an eye

on some courses, the students with better maths qualifications may get to do harder maths rather than none - which if you want maximum educational value for your fees is a positive!

DS did Maths, FM, Bio & Chem.he enjoyed them all but FM was the hardest, and is currently doing a Chem based degree. He did find the additional workload challenging and thought doing 3 would definitely have been ‘easier’ to get top marks, but the undoubted advantage his FM gave him at uni is obvious - all stem subjects at his uni look at everyone’s A level results, give them a short exam when they start to decide if they need to do Maths modules alongside their course. IIRC he thought only those with FM didn’t have to attend anything.

Just another thing to throw in here, just as A level maths is very different and a big step up from GCSE, degree level maths is very different and a huge step up from A level. The core topics are so theoretical it’s really hard to imagine.

When I did all my applications many moons ago, I was told that if you like A level maths you actually should look to a physics degree which is far more similar to maths A level. And if you like physics A level you should look to engineering courses. I don’t know how true that all is as I stuck to my guns and did maths but I remember thinking back to it regularly while I struggled with the degree level work (having breezed through school maths, further maths and STEP paper).

So agree with others start off with 4 to have options and see how it goes. And maybe think broadly about degree options at this stage.

@Seriously79 it depends if they find it hard. Ds1 sailed it, it just came very easily to him. For some people their brains just click with maths, both of mine did maths for fun whilst waiting for food in restaurants, mental maths challenges to each other. It was lovely to watch. Dh did a mech eng degree (maths and physics) and I did English Lit so this was all very alien to me too I live in a maths nerd household but I love it.

Re Cambridge, look ahead now, I know it seems early but it isn't. He can do some stuff over this summer toward A level, just dip his toe, get a feel. Both of mine learned their Computer Science yr 13 gaming language for their coursework over their year 11 ten week summer so it was very easy for them later on. They just love learning.

If he is looking at STEP for a Cambridge course then I believe that Cambridge set the pass rate to deliberately drop excess students as they only have X number of places for their course. You can get the grades but still "fail" the STEP requirement. This might only be for maths, it has been a while since I had to look into this sort of stuff. Ds did CTMUA (Cambridge) TMUA for Computer Science.

@Landlubber2019 whilst it is extremely common to sit 3 A levels FM comes under the 4th A level category and when applying to university it is possible that a lot of the other applicants have FM if it is a maths based course and so it could potentially disadvantage your child.

Look ahead now at the university requirements and not only that I would look into how many applicants they offered to with FM or contact admissions and specifically ask. A university cannot specify FM because not all sixth forms offer it but a lot of applicants will have it. Ds went to Durham for Computer Science and something like 92% of all successful applicants had FM but it is not specified. He said you absolutely needed FM knowledge in first year. Some may have sat TMUA and provided their results too on their UCAS form.

Some unis ask you to sit an entrance exam, ie TMUA (The Test of Mathematics for University Admission)* *for say Econ at Warwick which is where Ds2 is. It does depend how high he will be aiming. Do not rely on staff at sixth forms being all knowing, do your own research and ask on here too as many of us have been through this as parents. I have learned so much from the secondary/further education and higher education boards. I was always looking a couple of years ahead to get informed.

@Klemamtine thanks for this. It's great to get other opinions.

DS is currently flying with GCSE maths, top set and got a 9 in his most recent mocks.

He and 1 other student from year 11, were selected to self teach further maths and he got a 9 there too.

I just worry about the pressure he puts on himself to maintain these grades - but of course extremely proud of him.

He's got his sights set on Cambridge after A levels and they require further maths for the courses he's seen so far. It helps that my father in law is a retired maths teacher and alway on hand.

This is all so alien to me - I only did GNVQ's back in the day!