A level choices dilema

@poetryandwine Well slogans and especially short 3 word slogans rule! That one has too many words to be punchy! Who is it addressing? Hopefully students are a sceptical bunch.

When students come with all science A levels, I do think compulsory English modules should be included. I think the USA courses start from a broader base and we could learn something about breadth of skills.

Well TBF @TizerorFizz this YP knew how to talk the talk. Accomplishments aside, they spoke as if extremely ambitious and hungry for success.

Most of the more accomplished students present as being more mellow. I don’t think they are necessarily less hungry but I have the sense that they regard revealing the ambition to be in bad taste. I have always thought it was rather attractive. Not exhibiting the ability to go after work is obviously problematic. Is there a link?

In some ways British HE is going too far, verbally, the other way. Eg visiting a certain city I sometimes walk past a building site on a perfectly fine post 1992 university campus - I know some happy alumni and admire a couple of the academics. It is middle to lower ranked within the UK in most programmes with a few patches of excellence, all fine.

But the posters lining the site are emblazoned with Our Aim, which is ‘To become the World’s Leading Applied University by 2035’.

Do I find this impressive? No. I think, ‘good luck with MIT.’ My tutee was showing the same values as this sign. I think you are talking about the need for something more solid. I worry that people are losing the ability to make the distinction

@poetryandwine Style over substance! I’m surprised a 2:2 got them over the starting line.

DH has literally just retired and one of the other aspects the MD and others are now grappling with is the lack of entrepreneurial ambition in younger grads and even senior ones. A mid size consultancy needs to get work. Not everyone can sit back and be fed work. Knowing the value of the work and pricing is now very difficult for people to grasp. There doesn’t seem to be all round ability any more.

EPQ can be a helpful option for STEM-only A-level students, to develop/demonstrate writing skills. They can do a topic linked to their A-levels so the content interests them.

I agree STEM students can downplay the importance of writing skills, @TizerorFizz

I was quite dismayed a while back. I had a tutee who was a very stylish dresser (unusual for UGs in our field) and excellent at both verbal and written communication. But they completely failed to engage with the course. TBF there was some SEND, but they were also one of the very rare students I’ve known, with or without SEND, whom I felt to be milking the system.

After a restart and some forgiveness they scraped a 2.2 but with very little deep subject knowledge or demonstration of teamwork, transferable skills, etc. Just that great communicative style. And promptly landed a technical job with one of the Big Four consulting firms! They won out over some of our top students - in both technical and all round terms - and of course many others.

@poetryandwine When looking for engineers in a market where there’s not enough to go round, good English skills were assessed but not so easy to find. Mathsy people really can think it does not matter.

It’s my observation of both UGs and PGs that an essay subject helps a lot when it comes to writing a dissertation or even writing up a group project.

Also, many jobs in STEM now seem to require writing samples during the interview process. I think they are looking for both clarity and reasonably sophisticated writing. Essay subjects to the rescue again!

Yes, interestingly Economics A level s not pedagogically necessary for Economics and Computer Science A level is not necessary for Computer Science (in general; there are exceptions). Arguably FM is more important for getting off to a strong start in both.

@Mielikki Ah. So the old MN luxury to ignore what employers want! He was an employer. It matters. People who let the company down due to poor English are not the best employee they could be. As a successful business owner employing many engineers down the years, I can assure you the views of employers do matter. It’s one reason why grads cannot get jobs.

LSE does not require Economics for their Econimics degree. They don’t require FM either but say it’s desirable. They are happy with M, FM and an essay subject and they list suitable options: English, History, Economics and Government and Politics.

Ah, the old Mumsnet “my DH says…”

Yes, @LIZS

Some very good Economics programmes don’t even require Economics A level, preferring FM.

Economics is both essay and stats based. Many degrees have an element of revision in first year,

@Mielikki It’s about time scientists could write essays and express themselves in accurate English. DH employed so many engineers who struggled to write reports or explain what they were doing to clients. It’s not wierd. It’s vital.

I did A-level economics and it was handy for year one of my degree but we quickly moved onto more advanced stuff. I took history, economics, maths and further maths.

Most people with your son’s combination will pick chemistry, computer science or economics as the 4th subject.

Economics is quite essay-based at A-level, I think because the maths involved at undergraduate level and beyond is quite hard and beyond the scope of the course. Certainly when I did it many years ago the class was full of people who wanted to do maths and business type things but the students who got the best grades were those few of us who were good at essays.

It really depends what he thinks he'd like to do at university and what his gcse predictions look like.

If he thinks he'd want to do maths he definitely should do FM. If he's more likely to go for physics/engineering or that sort of thing then FM is useful but not essential.

For both these options as a 3rd/4th A level another science would be a good idea, chemistry being the obvious choice or geography/biology/computer science

If he thinks he would enjoy economics/PPE type degree then he should do a more essay based A level like economics/philosophy/politics

Just to add my brother is an engineer and did maths, physics and chemistry for A level, no FM, then mechanical engineering degree.

You have to love Maths and Physics to do Further Maths.

I didn't, still did Further Maths and it was 2 years of agony.

DH loved both and so loved Further Maths and found it easy.

If he plans on studying maths or physics at university then further maths is useful, it give a bit of a head start - although not as much as people will have you believe, I studied physics and we covered the whole of the FM curriculum in the first term. Chemistry is also very useful. Avoid economics at all costs unless he’s the kind of weirdo who actually enjoys writing essays.

DC would need to check individual Entry Requirements of degree programmes that interest them. From a STEM admissions tutor’s perspective, the A level contains enough writing to be helpful.

I just checked briefly and one exam board, EdExcel, gives their Economics exam format as

Part A : Multiple Choice and Short Answers

Part B: Data Response

Part C: An Essay

I agree with the advice above. Furthermore, you elect the Mechanics modules in FM, Maths-FM-Physics integrate beautifully. Although not the easiest trio of A levels, for a talented mathematician this combination is less effort than the sum of its parts because of the mutual reinforcement.

However this only applies if @clary ’s criterion of Grade 8 at GCSE Maths was obtained.

I also agree the fourth subject should be whatever DC likes and will be motivated to study. An essay subject will impress STEM tutors and likely be a necessity for other subjects

I think if he likes maths and physics then I would encourage doing FM too. Statistically you're more likely to get higher grades in the other subjects if you take FM (check gov.uk for the stats) and I also think it is advantageous to get more offers on competitive courses at competitive unis if you take FM. As for a 4th A level, I think he should pursue whatever he really enjoys - computer science, economics, chemistry, these are all natural fits but also I don't see why any 4th subject really matters. I have two YP studying competitive STEM courses, both took FM and both are saying it is a huge advantage, especially in your first year as those that didn't take FM are finding it much harder.

FM is definitely good for maths courses at the best universities but is not required for some degrees like economics and engineering at some very good universities. Having FM gives more choice of courses though and is a good one to have if you are mathsy. For engineering you might not need a 4th subject either. Or maths degrees. So it’s worth thinking about what degree and where.

An essay subject is never wasted and economics degrees stretch way above A level economics.

He should have a think about Uni choices / careers. My son went down a maths route and further maths was required for a lot of his choices.

Any ideas about what he wants to do at Uni? If not, and he is good at essay writing subjects, maybe do one of those. So Maths Physics, Further Maths and History/ English Lit. Keeps open a few more doors.