Workload - further maths

As a non-mathematician, my take is that a maths degree is a bit like mental acrobatics, lots of continuous practice to crack ever more complicated puzzles. In this context, Maths departments may fear a student loses 'form" in a gap year through lack of practice.

Applying for a degree-level apprenticeship in Y13 is very pressured. For every hundred 18 year olds going to uni, only two 18 year olds secure a L5-7 apprenticeship. At 17, you have to pass recruitment tests designed for 21 year olds and at 18 perform in the workplace like a 22 year old. Very little age allowance, if any, is given.
In our experience, schools are not particularly aware or understanding during the recruitment process and both DC found the Autumn term of Y13 full on and very difficult to juggle (just as it can be for second year students applying for placements or final year students applying for grad schemes).

Degree-level apprenticeships do mean you narrow your options at the outset and you are immediately into the world of targets, appraisals, limited holiday etc. Mine did a lot of research of both uni and apprenticeship options in Y11-12 and were very clear about what they were giving up and what they were signing up to. The whole 'debt free' aspect (an understandable focus for many parents) was not really a main issue; it is really about a style of learning and a desire for early responsibility. There are some other active threads about apprenticeships on this forum if you want find out more.

My main point in flagging creative hobbies in the context of an apprenticeship is that these things can be maintained as part of ongoing life - whether at school, uni or in work. It just sometimes takes a bit of determined time management. It might not be necessary to consider a gap year. I hope that helps.

She said she finds it’s satisfying to solve maths problems but she can’t see any real application to the real world. I guess she’s still very young.

There's a lack of visibility and understanding of what maths may be used for - perhaps because not many people in the media have much of a clue about maths, science and technology. 'The real world' now depends a lot on maths. I'm in a niche area of scientific software development (used for applications such as drug discovery, biotherapeutics etc but also advanced materials development) - we use a lot of 'hard maths'. That's just one example.
A side note re physics - I think it's unfortunate that it can be quite dry at school, I think it gets a lot more interesting the further you go. I guess a lot of kids may be put off STEM subjects because there's quite a lot of slogging up the foothills required.

@PerpetualOptimist thank you. All this is really useful to read and hear about.

Weve been told by the school it will be just two frees per week. I’m not sure why it’s so intense. They are a bit worried if she’ll cope. She’s been cruising for the last 4 years or so and suddenly started working in November. She managed to get three 9s, three 8s and four 7s all academic subjects, no art or dt etc. She’s always worked hard in class but it’s been outside of class she doesn’t want to do extra but just recently found her stride with putting in more time. She has volunteered in a charity shop for a year or so for a couple of hours a week but not doing that right now. Would he too much for her but she is keeping up drama once a week outside school. So as you say she may find she gets better as squeezing more in as well as getting used to working harder.

She told me yesterday that those doing 4 a levels can miss double PE session if they want but said she’d rather not. Likes to be active though not a team sport player.

I take it that the no gap thing going onto uni straight is due to forgetting stuff? A year is a long time away from all those concepts.

Yes we’ve wondered about psychology and maths, seen it at Newcastle and Durham but not sure if it works well in the real world?

Interesting your DC is doing accountancy apprenticeship. No uni? Do you think it’s a better route? No debt at the end! Got to be a good thing.

I have wondered if it would be less pressure on DD to go straight to apprenticeship as pressure after coming out of uni to land a job feels high.

Thank you again for your help.

@Vive42 Remember, for many students, Maths and FM together do not feel like 'double maths' but more like, say, 1.75 A levels because of common ground. I would be surprised if your DC would have only two free periods a week if taking four A levels; mine had 7 frees a week on the same basis (comp).

FM as a third is rarely allowed as dropping it (because subsequently found to be too difficult) leaves the student marooned with just two A levels. Sometimes a non-FM A level might be dropped before Y13, but only if the student is good at FM and only looking to go on to Maths and Maths-adjacent subjects at uni.

You say your DC appreciates downtime and has a creative side; mine were the same at this stage. (I have two DC who have done FM as a fourth subject). They did become progressively more time efficient in Y12 and Y13 (and beyond) and so were able to fit in volunteering and paid work. You may find your DD will be the same; certainly the medic route will require the honing of those skills. One of mine has kept up a very creative hobby whilst doing an accountancy apprenticeship and just makes sure they are hyper-efficient at work and at study so they have the creative time they desire.

Remember that if your DD does decide to pursue the Maths route at uni, then a gap year after Y13 if not advisable. She could look to do that after uni, or carve out time as she goes along or consider a 'Maths&' degree that dilutes the puzzle solving and weird symbols.

Thank you @BreadInCaptivity thats really helpful.

I agree that you need the maths wiring for further maths. I do believe DD has it as she’s like her Dad. She thinks differently and just ‘sees’ things. I don’t think she’s ever encountered a problem she can’t solve given enough time. That’s not to say she could solve everything by any means, it’s only GCSE so far but she said she finds the subject easy so far.

Im not sure how much she loves it though. She said she finds it’s satisfying to solve maths problems but she can’t see any real application to the real world. I guess she’s still very young.

Because she has a natural aptitude I think it’s a waste not to pursue it but then I do want her to enjoy her work and whatever she goes on to do.

More than anything she loves writing and wants to be an author.

We said she can take a year out before or after uni to do a writing course if that’s what she wants to do. Though she’s already studied plot structure, character etc at length.

She loves learning, whatever it is, languages, literature etc.

The only thing to date she’s found a bit boring is physics. So engineering and physics are off the table.

Thank you for your help. We’ve decided tonight to start with four including FM and see she goes.

She does appreciate a lot of downtime to be honest and could in no way sustain @autumn666 DS’s schedule. It would be too much for her.

I am worried 4 a levels will be too much but she has to try as it may work out. And we wouldn’t know if maths, FM plus one other might be right for her if we don’t start out on this route.

Thank you also @autumn666 for coming back to the thread with an update.

Your DS sounds amazing!! You must be very proud of him.

@Vive42

DS is at Uni studying maths in his last year. He did Maths/Further Maths/Physics/Computer Science at A Level (got 4 A star). Been accepted for an MA at Cambridge.

I think non mathematicians see the subject in a very one dimensional way. However the topics covered in M/FM are different with the latter being a larger leap from GCSE.

In terms of Uni, if you want to study maths then FM is definitely an advantage but it's not a requirement for all (including top 10 rated) universities simply as there are many schools that don't offer FM (so being mandatory would be discriminatory).

That said if you want to do a maths degree, FM is a good segway into that and I think not having it risks the step from school to uni level maths being much, much more difficult.

My DS's experience is his friends who didn't do FM found their first ini year really tough and whilst some have caught up, others haven't and have struggled on (and will prob get a 2:2 at best - one has already had to re-sit their second year) and others have switched degree subjects completely.

Based on our experience I'd suggest if your child might want to do maths at uni they definitely do FM at A level if they have the opportunity.

If they find it tough at A Level it's a good indicator NOT to pursue that subject at degree level and if it's a fourth subject they can stop it and push their efforts in a different direction before getting to Uni and realising it not for them.

If medicine is an option then the volunteering commitment will be significant, but my DS didn't find doing 4 overly stressful (but he loves maths - it's fun for him).

I think Maths particularly is very much a subject where you just have to have a natural talent for it and where hard work won't help you overcome having a brain that's simply "maths wired".

Unfortunately I think it's only FM A Level that separates out "maths wired" individuals from those who are regardless very clever and hard working and thus get great maths grades until they hit that FM barrier or worse at Uni.

It's a tough call in your situation but if maths is on the table I'd definitely recommend she does FM A Level.

@autumn666

Can I ask how your DS Is doing now?

My DD is in the same boat but a year younger and is trying to decide whether to do Further Maths as a full A-level or just as an AS Level.

Her subject choices for A-Level are Maths, Chemistry and Biology.

Like your DS, she is very able at maths, predicted a 9 and finds it comes naturally. She is doing the further maths GCSE.

She is trying to decide between medicine or maths as a degree and all weekend we’ve been trying to decide what she should do as this has an impact on her A-level choices.

Her school only allow Futher Maths as a fourth A-level. You’re not allowed to choose it as say maths, further maths and chemistry. I’m not sure why.

We’re getting quite a lot of pressure to do just AS Level because they say DD will find it hard to cope with four and only get 2 free periods a week.

This summer she is doing actuarial work experience as she wasn’t sure what to do but she still wants to try work experience in a hospital and see what that’s like too. She really doesn’t know what is the right thing for her.

Im worried medicine will be too much pressure for her but on the other hand she may really enjoy it.

The school are saying that is she drops Further Maths she may not be able to join the AS Further Maths class as it’s on a completely different timetable to full Further Maths.

I am so unsure what to do.

Add to that her Dad is a very very highly qualified mathematician who wants her to study maths to the highest degree and also that she’s expressed an interest in psychology as well as everything else we are all over the place.

Can anyone help our thinking here?

Do hope your DS is thriving OP and coping well with the workload.

@autumn666 excellent news. His teachers being happy is good. Reaching out when you are unsure is one of the best ways to ensure success. It is actually listed in Ds's sixth form under what makes a successful student? Basically the teachers are here for you, ask us anything you need.

Good. It may be that he's learning something more valuable than the FM here!

It is usual for a college to just do the whole content of A level maths in year 12 and then those that are excelling move onto FM in year 13. If not they just join the normal maths A level group for either part of year 12 if it is obvious they are not coping or in year 13. Ds says getting the foundation down first is better and then expanding on that with FM.

He needs to seek help from his teachers as to why he is needing to spend so much time on the FM part. I think this may have been a shock to him to struggle with something but he needs to reach out and get help. Every day at college there is a time slot when all teachers are available for this sort of intervention and guidance.

He doesn't need 4 A levels for medicine just ace out 3. He would be better spending his time studying for the entrance exams, Ds's mate has just sat UCAT and will be sitting BMAT in November.

Seems strange to do both consecutively, no wonder he's finding it hard.

I think you meant concurrently? My dd did both maths and fm at the same time, it was fine but that was the old format so it allowed for them to stop their 4th subject after AS.

I think PP are right that for medicine it may be better to ditch the FM as he will have other things he needs to do.

But on one point, I think part of the issue may be that he just isn't used to finding something difficult and is letting it get to him - in general it's probably a good thing if kids do encounter something difficult at school and figure out how to deal with it. The 'jump' between GCSEs and A levels (even FM) is likely less that that between A levels and the more rigorous degree courses.

At DS' school they have switched away from doing maths in year 12 and FM in year 13 since they have apparently found it works better for them to do them both at the same time - they feed into each other, maybe?

@autumn666 If he's enjoying it, then that's great. But yes, it's definitely a very big step up and FM homework does take over your life when you are doing 4 a-levels.

Seems strange to do both consecutively, no wonder he's finding it hard.

At my DS's school (and the other local school that does FM), they do A level Maths in year 12 and then FM in year 13, so only ever doing 3 A levels at any one time. They just do them at a faster pace. The "one year" A level maths course is only for those who'll be doing FM in year 13 and only for those who achieved a good grade in FM at GCSE level, hence why they can do the normal A level in just a year - it's a self-selecting group of highly able Maths students who've probably already covered some of the A level syllabus as part of the GCSE FM exam.

I wonder if the FM teacher is new to it, or trying too hard, maybe even piling them on with work to see who sinks and who swims as a kind of "weeding out"?

Maybe have a look at the medicine thread here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4773726-medicine-2025-entry?page=1 . I would strongly recommend just doing three A levels. He will need to practice for ucat, practice for interviews, attend interviews (hopefully), ideally get relevant paid or voluntary experience to discuss in the interviews and then make sure that he gets at least 3A at A level. Dropping the ball on just one of these could mean delaying studies by another year. The sooner he drops it, the more time he frees up. An EPQ might lead to a lower grade requirement at some universities but only if he really fancies doing it, otherwise it is just a distraction.

Op, how does your school do Maths & FM? Some do A level maths in Yr12 and FM in Yr13 so both courses are at double speed. GCSE maths is glacier speed in comparison so it is a significant jump.

DS is doing FM and will probably drop a different A level as soon as he is allowed. Has to carry on at least till half-term.

It’s been a really big step up - fm at GCSE was a lesson a week after school with no homework. This weekend he’s mostly been doing maths.

At the sixth form open evening they said hardly anyone ends up doing 4 A- levels, even though most start four. Might as well decide sooner rather than later (unless your DS is enjoying it - mine doesn’t like the one he wants to drop much).

Given he wants medicine, I would ditch the FM now, and focus on the other subjects, along with the med assessments and experience/volunteering in relevant areas.

If he wants to study medicine he should drop it and focus on working for the medical entrance exams - the UKCAT and the BMAT.

They are HARD and it is his results from those that will have most impact.

@autumn666 Do they have a good teacher for FM?

It is probably too early to give up now as assume you haven't had feedback from the school yet

However if he is serious about medicine then he will need to focus on entry exams and that will also take up time so 6th form is about achieving the balance to meet longer term goals. If he is in a high performing cohort and used to doing well he made help to get the right balance.