A Level choices - Maths plus ? ? Advice appreciated

The OP said RG. What the top 4 do re extra papers really might not matter. There’s over 20 others plus Lancaster, Bath, Loughborough. Not all RG will demand FM. FM does help, but is not always obligatory!

@Madeinessex I think it is best to start at the beginning, universities are ranked overall but also by their subjects. So they may be a 5 overall but a 12 on a specific subject or vice versa. The most used university ranking list is probably

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings

although there are ones by The Guardian and The Times too. Then you can drill down by subject so for mathematics it is Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, St Andrews, LSE, Bath, UCL, Edinburgh and Bristol and then 11th Durham. As Durham has been mentioned above "Taking Durham Accounting and Finance as an example, they require AAB and only specify Maths" Durham is ranked overall at 8th but their Economics or A&F courses are ALL BAs not BScs. They lead more toward it being a social science, more PPE (Philosophy, Politics and Economics) than maths based which the BSc would be. We have just been to their open day for Economics.

Maths absolutely needs further maths if looking to do maths with anything at uni. They cannot state fm as not all sixth forms offer it but it would disadvantage any applicant applying as the vast majority of the other applicants will have it. When you say "There is no split of yr12/13 maths/fm either" do you mean they definitely do them side by side in year 12? Both my sons did 4 A levels taking maths with fm, it is usually a 4th subject due to the way funding works. My youngest son is in year 12 now going into year 13. In their sixth form there is a maths class which does maths over 2 years and a "further maths maths" class. The fm class has both maths and further maths on their timetable but they absolutely only do maths A level content in both lessons in year 12. They do fm in year 13 as it builds on their maths knowledge. Some students do drop out of the fm stream into the normal maths class if they are struggling with the pace. Both of my sons got high 9s at GCSE. They sit both maths and fm exams at the end of year 13.

For maths Ds's sixth form only asks for a grade 6 at GCSE, but noblegiraffe who is a maths teacher will tell you that even coming in on a 7 at GCSE will probably see most students with a C at A level. Whereas a 9 will give you a better chance of getting an A star as they have the foundation knowledge on which they can build.

Ds1 says fm isn't like doing a full A level as you are expanding your knowledge of maths, not learning something from scratch. I am also unsure as to whether they will ask for 4 A level grades they usually only ask for 3 and stipulate an A star in maths or fm. A few unis might and it is worth asking the uni admissions on this. Neither of my sons did an EPQ due to the 4 A level workload however both of mine completed all their homework in their free periods in school. They had 5 hours of frees per week. Contact time was 5 hours per subject for Ds1 and 4 1/2 hours for Ds2.

I don't know why you are worrying about fm if he is going to apply for maths at uni as he should be able to keep up with fm. For some unis he will have to sit a maths entrance exam, that could be TMUA (Test of Mathematics for University Admission which is being phased out but no doubt replaced with something) MAT or STEP. Some take place in early November of year 13, STEP is June when they sit their A levels. Past papers are online. For somewhere like Cambridge, they deliberately set the STEP pass grade to cull around 50% of their maths applicants, ie they have the grades but "fail" STEP because they over offer and cull until they reach their desired number of students so only take the best of the best. That is what I have read on here anyway.

My advice is do the maths, fm, economics which is an essay based A level. I wouldn't recommend BS, sorry. About the other slot, this is just 2 years and not really 2 to be honest, more like 18 months of a subject. He needs to know this is about grades on a paper. Entry grades are the lowest level they will take someone in on so to have more of a chance of getting in they need higher grades than the entry. So what subject could he ace out? Also know that some unis are always oversubscribed so even with 4 A stars and 9s across the board at GCSE they will reject some just because of sheer numbers.

@Madeinessex you mention above your DS definitely wants to follow a career which includes Maths, I therefore think Maths/further maths, Physics and Business studies would keep the most doors open for him.You don't need Economics A level to do a degree involving Economics and Physics definitely helps with the applied maths side. It also means engineering degrees would be possible if he would be so inclined.

My DD did Maths and Further maths, History, general Studies and Spanish at A Level. She dropped GS after Year 12 though. Went on to study Maths at an RG uni and got a graduate training contract with one of the big 4 accountancy firms. She obtained lots of qualifications to do with accountancy and Tax whilst there. She has just started working for a worldwide company as a Tax manager. Loves it!

@Madeinessex Yes. There a big difference within RG. Just looking at maths: QMUL is 37th for maths in the complete university guide. Only Newcastle if the RG group is ranked below it. Plenty of non RG are ranked above. So don’t assume all RG are the same, they are not. Take a look at entry requirements (for maths some unis want extra tests and really like FM) and there can be quite a difference in A level grades required between the top ranked and mid ranked, but not for all subjects .

A friend’s DD is an actuary. Did maths at uni. A Maths degree keeps so many doors open. FM for A level keeps more degrees on the table. I think a maths degree is best but it isn’t for everyone. Business or management degrees at somewhere like Bath are sought after. Non RG but punches above QMUL.

Are politics and maths a good combination? Can’t see it myself for a Dc who is good at maths.

What about maths, business studies & politics?

Did he want to do those degrees?

I would recommend
Maths, Further Maths, Economics and an A level that has intensive writing like English lit or history or ancient civ.

The RG unis value an intensive writing A level that teaches critical thinking for finance, law, economist type degree courses.

@Madeinessex Im amazed they won’t allow FM as a third subject. My neighbour’s DS did M/FM/P and went to Exeter for maths. So FM as a third subject really cuts out very few unis. QMUL is much easier to get into than LSE or Cambridge or Warwick. However if FM is available he should do it but the school is not being sensible about FM. They aren’t being sensible about Economics either. So for his 4th A level I would do B Studies but the school should offer BS or Econ for a choice. No one does both.

I'd suggest Maths, FMaths, Physics and Business Studies.

Don't worry about BS being seen as "easier", because it won't matter if the others are deemed "very hard" subjects of Maths and Physics. Most Unis only want 2 "hard" or facilitating subjects and aren't really that bothered about the third, especially if there's both Maths and FMaths alongside the Physics.

It's a shame, as doing Economics at A levels means less work when they do Economics in the degree (and economics in the actuarial professional exams).

My DS did A level economics and had to put very little effort into the two economics modules of his Financial Maths degree (he's moving on into Actuarial graduate scheme at a big insurance firm). He did Maths, Physics and Economics.

I'd certainly avoid doing Maths, Economics and BS as the main 3, as, yes, both economics and BS together can be seen as "lightweight" leaving only the Maths as the hard/facilitating subject. My son was strongly advised by his sixth form to avoid that combo for those reasons.

RE the workload-From what I've seem with Maths/Further Maths yes they are two separate A levels, but most schools do the Maths syllabus in year 12 and the further in year 13. M/FM groups tend to be small and all the students are there because they are good at Maths and so they can work faster at the Maths. The Maths/Further Maths combination is far more manageable than two unlinked A levels.

Does he like science. M,Fm, Phys and Chem is the common combination for STEM types who want to keep their options open.

(I did this combination, then a maths degree and am now an actuary.)

I am surprised that you can’t do Physics and Economics though. It is a pretty common combination.

He needs to check what modules the school does for their further maths. If they do an applied module for further, that further strengthens the argument for Physics!

Physics helps for the applied part of Maths A level. I would suggest option 2 with Maths and further Maths and no EPQ. My son is doing Maths/further Maths with 2 other A levels and wishes he had done Physics. He has been looking over the shoulder of his friend doing Physics A level and he says it looks far more interesting than the stuff done in Physics GCSE. You don't need to do Economics to do a degree that is Economics related but doing Physics A level opens more doors for a greater variety of degrees.

I think Business would be OK if he's also doing FM (plus Physics and Maths).

Does his school offer politics or philosophy? They could go well with maths and physics if aiming for economics later

My ds studied accounting and finance at Warwick with IB higher level subjects in Maths, chemistry and Biology. A lot of students on his course has studied economics/ business at a level, but he soon caught up.
my dd is studying maths, further maths, chemistry and biology and decided an EPQ was too much with four a levels. If your ds loves maths definitely take further maths.

Hi OP, taking FM as a 4th A level would aid your DS's relative competitiveness ('despite' taking Business A level) in the eyes Cambridge and the LSE because, if you look at the detail of the relevant guidance text in both cases, they do not rule out Business if it is taken alongside three 'academic' subjects (at Cambridge) or at least two 'preferred' subjects (at the LSE). Obviously someone with all academic/preferred subjects may be in a stronger position but my point is that it is all a bit more nuanced.

clary, your posts are usually much more incisive than mine, so it is nice to turn the tables for once! You might be interested to hear that the LSE is another uni who frown on Econ and Business being taken together (buried slightly but also in the preferred subjects section).

Back to you, OP, from time to time, there are some useful threads about Business v Economics; here on such:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4058674-A-level-choice-Business-or-Economics

Personally I would seriously consider moving to a different sixth form which allowed more flexibility of subjects - either to take FM not as a 4th A Level or to study physics and economics.

Otherwise, I think either choice would be perfectly fine and it's up to DC to choose which he'd prefer.

I agree if he's thinking of 4 A Levels, then an EPQ as well would be too much.

What would he like to cover in his EPQ? I think the main reason for doing one should be to be able to explore something outside of your main A Level courses. It's hard work and you need to be very self driven, so not a thing to do "just because".

My DS did Maths, Economics and Physics and then went on to get a first in Economics and now has a finance job in an asset management company.
He said he’d wished he’d picked German instead of Physics as he struggled with Physics.

Maths is very competitive when you get to UCAS applications, further maths will be required and there are not many contextual offers. By doing 4, it does give some extra flexibility as a maths based degree at RG will want the A* in maths.

@Madeinessex I agree with pp that a combination of Maths/Further Maths/Physics and then whatever else he wants to do (economics/business studies) as a fourth A-level (but probably in his studies to focus on Maths/Further Maths/Physics). Sadly schools receive less funding for Further Maths which is probably why the school is insisting on it being taken as a 4th option, however Maths/Further Maths/Physics is an incredibly common subject combination for applicants to top universities who are hoping to study maths, physics, engineering, economics, etc.

Universities definitely won't discount or think less of an applicant who has Maths/Further Maths/Physics/Business Studies just because they're taking business studies, but they might not include business studies as part of the offer (e.g. your son might receive an offer to get particular grades in maths/further maths/physics).