A Level choices - Maths plus ? ? Advice appreciated

Sorry posted this in the wrong place!

Biology or Economics A Level?

DS2 has to make his final subject choices this week. He will definitely do Maths, Further Maths and Physics. He has to do a fourth subject (FM only available as a fourth). Can’t decide between Biology and Economics.

He has enjoyed Biology GCSE but has heard that the A Level is hard and in particular is very content heavy and has quite pernickity mark schemes. He likes the idea of Economics but not entirely keen on long essays (although has done well so far in History so he can do them).

Any thoughts on which is a better option??

He doesn’t know what he might want to do at Uni …

Something like that! And still they don't want to do it as they can earn more money elsewhere (and not have to teach! Haha) This is a big issue for schools actually (less of an issue for English or history) - maths grads can command good salaries. Mate of Ds2's was earning 25k in his placement year fgs.

@clary Absolutely. Don’t maths grads get £25,000 if they sign up to teach? That.is a decent amount.

Yes agree withb@TizerorFizz I hear a lot of talk on here and in RL about degree apprenticeships, but in fact very few students get them, and anecdotally apprenticeships in general are not always great.

Maths degree from RG uni or Bath, Lancaster - you'll not go wrong.

Maths degrees lead to a wide choice of work. Apprenticeships are much harder to get. Only around 3500 18 year olds get them at the moment. People talk about them as equivalent to degrees for 18 year olds but most degree apprenticeships go to existing adult employers. So do be aware that apprenticeships at top firms are very hard to get. With a maths degree you have more choice and wide employment options. Degree finance is not debt. It’s a grad tax. If you earn well, pay chunks of it off if you can to reduce your tax.

If he's into tax work, get him to look at ACA/CTA joint qualification which could be funded by an employer on an apprenticeship.

What does he want to do after uni? There's a lot of focus on uni courses and things that go well with maths, but where does he see himself when he is 25 or 30? Is uni essential for that?
For example, I'm a chartered accountant, trained in a top ten firm. We had an outstanding apprenticeship scheme for school leavers and would have viewed accounting or finance degrees as a bit of a waste of time and money - you learn better and faster on the job, qualify faster and with zero debt.
I would strongly advise your son to think beyond uni to careers he may be interested in, find out if those careers have apprenticeship options, and if that appeals to him. If so, my own experience was that employers care more about grades than subjects so he should just do what he loves, but he should definitely check out employers he might be interested in to see what they would be looking for, both in school leavers and graduates.
Good luck

BS does cover finance but is allied to running a business. Economics finance is at a government/international level. For a future accountant, BS explains the world of business much more effectively. If he would prefer to work in a business, BS is a good introduction. If he would prefer Economics, Econ A level is better. For anything maths based, eg actuary, a maths degree is a great start and BS really would not be an issue. The only time I would say Economics is the better A level is if DC wants to do Economics for a degree. Clearly a bit of prior knowledge is useful.

There are also degrees such as Economics & Finance. I’ve looked at Sheffield and they want AAA which must include maths. They will even include a native language A level as one of the three! So BS and Physics would hardly be a negative. Moving away from the top unis and looking at courses in more detail will pay dividends when making a choice. RG has such a wide selection!!

While it’s true that lots of highly rated unis do not specify FM for a maths degree, this, as PP have noted, is often bc some post-16 destinations do not offer it. But for sure it will always be an advantage if you want to study maths at uni. So why not take it?

If you like maths that much that you want to spend three years studying it surely you would want to take FM? I took Further German in sixth for – as in, I sat the special paper, basically bc I wanted to study German and do as much as I could.

Are there no other sixth forms within reach.

Maths physics and economics is such a sensible and obvious combination as a pathway to a high-flying career that a school that won't allow it as a combination is clearly not used to shepherding talented highly skilled numerate pupils towards high flying careers. In your shoes I would be looking elsewhere, including private options, to get a school that will allow this very sensible combination.

If there are reasons why it has to be this specific school then maths physics and business studies isn't too bad but the business studies curriculum won't cover the aspects of finance that a mathematician will find most interesting.

No, he really doesn't. Plenty of top Unis don't have FM as a requirement for their Maths degrees!

@HolidayPlansAPlanning

that may be so and congratulations to your son. But the OP specifically said Cambridge and LSE which do state they require fm.

In the opening post, the OP only mentioned RG!

@Dukeydo He absolutely does not need FM. The original query was RG. Not Cambridge. There’s plenty of maths degrees which would offer him a place without tests and FM. It’s not necessary to go to the top 10. Plenty of others recognise students don’t have fm and offer sessions to bridge the gap. By saying only those with FM can do a maths degree cuts out very good students who would be capable of doing very well on the degree. It’s also just plain wrong.

He needs maths and further maths if he wants to go for maths.

maths, further maths, physics and economics sounds good - is there another sixth form that can accommodate this?

@Badbadbunny that may be so and congratulations to your son. But the OP specifically said Cambridge and LSE which do state they require fm. I listed the top 10 universities for maths according to the Complete University Guide because the OP said the two above I assumed they were aiming for the top 10 which apart from the Scottish unis all state they require fm. As I said statistically those applying for maths degrees to the very top unis usually have further maths.

I agree with Perpetual this is the difference between the top 10 of which the OP's son could choose a possible 5 and those below that in the ranking for maths, still amazing universities but possibly have lower entry grades and possibly don't ask for fm.

I think we need to draw a distinction between suggestions for OP's DS and more general comments about Maths/FM and Maths at uni. In OP's case, if aspirations are currently focused on highly competitive Maths courses, then taking FM makes sense for many of the reasons outlined above (and acknowledged upthread by OP).

More generally, amongst unis below the very 'top tier' for Maths, a significant proportion of students do not have FM (eg SACU Student data suggests upwards to 50% of those studying BSc Mathematics at Birmingham, Exeter and L'boro, for example, do not). They will have a tougher first year, most likely, but many obviously survive and thrive because Y1 drop out rates are not particularly high at those unis cited. So, FM is a good thing to take if you can, but if you have not, it does not rule out Maths at uni.

With regards tests (STEP, MAT, TMUA), the position is nuanced. For a small number of top tier Maths courses, an additional test is mandatory; at other top tier unis it can lead to a reduced offer (from horrifically high to just high!). Others, like U of Bath, only request additional tests for those without FM. Below the top tier, a good score in the TMUA or MAT may secure a lower offer but a standard offer is likely to be made whether a test is taken or not.

With regards Business A-level, it should be remembered that can be essay heavy (depending on exam board) and does develop critical thinking skills and so could be a perfectly reasonable supplement to a Maths/FM/Phys combination which, for reasons outlined upthread, would not be terminal to an application to Cambridge or LSE (as they make clear in their own guidance), if they remained on OP's DS's radar.

I speak from my son's recent experience. His school offered it, he chose not to take it. He has just got a First in his Maths degree at a top 10 UK University!

He got offers from Durham, York, Lancaster, Leeds and Newcastle, all for Maths degrees.

From memory, it was only the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Warwick and St Andrews that had FM (or equivalent test) as compulsory!

@Badbadbunny they can't insist on it because not all sixth forms offer it so it is seen as unfair to ask for it ie you probably went to a state school who doesn't offer it. Scottish Highers also do not have a Further Maths equivalent. The OP said Cambridge, they ask for it "All Colleges require: A Level/IB Higher Level Mathematics, A Level Further Mathematics (A Level students only), STEP. Some Colleges Require: A Level/IB Higher Level in a science subject; A Level/IB Higher Level Physics (for Mathematics with Physics only)

The OP also said LSE who again require it. A-levels AAA, with an A* in Mathematics. Where it is offered by your school or college, AS- or A-level Further Mathematics is expected to be taken and a grade A achieved.
We also consider your AS grades, if available.

Of those I listed at top 10, Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, Bath, Bristol, UCL (except the 2 Scottish unis) all ask for further maths. Usually they ask for an entry test too which tests beyond what you have been taught for A level. Ds was told it was to test your ability to make the next logical step in maths without having been taught it. He sat a maths entry exam for uni.

It may not be specifically listed for some but if you look at the actual admissions stats usually found on Freedom of Information requests for maths at top unis then the applicants they offer to almost all have it. Oversubscribed universities have choices in who they accept onto their course. Why would they want someone who is apparently enthusiastic about maths but didn't take fm? As I said it puts them at a disadvantage when applying. Both of my sons took fm, that means 50% of their A level timetable is maths.

@HolidayPlansAPlanning

Maths absolutely needs further maths if looking to do maths with anything at uni.

No. Plenty of top Unis accept students onto Maths degrees without FM. It's only a minority who insist on it.

From some of the open days we've been to (this has been for Maths rather than Maths applied degrees) the assumption is that you will have done further Maths unless your school/college doesn't offer it.

Just looking at maths: QMUL is 37th for maths in the complete university guide.

Is that for undergraduates? I thought QMUL was very good for maths but I'm thinking about research.

FM is never obligatory, because some schools do not offer it, and universities don't want to put off potential students from applying.

But if doing maths (or a maths heavy) course, and the school does offer FM, then people might wonder why not. Because if someone doesn't like maths enough to want to do FM, are they really interested in a maths subject at a higher level?

Also, on a practical note, it can make the first couple of terms at university harder, as topics will be covered quickly and those who have done them before will have less to learn.

Obviously I'm not commanding "thou shalt do FM" but for certain degrees, it really is worth having. It's not a tick in a box, it's useful.