MFL and native speakers

It can be an issue but I wouldn't say it's an issue for french. Subjects like Russian, Polish and mandarin are certainly more skewed.

If she wants to do french, let her do it. Don't worry about grade boundaries being skewed. It was the best thing I ever studied at school; I gained a skill and a lifelong love of languages through it. I've worked abroad in several countries and im now a doctor. It's changed my life immeasurably and it's harder than being raised bilingually but you do get there.

I shudder to think how different my life would've been had I taken any other a level subject as they just wouldn't have opened the doors french has.

"Agree, I wouldn't consider it any more odd than a native English speaker studying English Language/Literature or American Studies"

Yes they did.

And it is totally different to studying English Language too.

The depth of study cannot even begin to be compared.

In MFL, you're learning very basic stuff, analysing a few texts, maybe studying a little of the history. English Language goes way deeper than that.

Nobody mentioned English Literature, it was Language, which lots of native English speakers read at university. I'm really not sure what is so funny or ludicrous about that?

Ha ha, as if it's the same as studying English Literaure as a native English speaker.

The native speakers I know are actually teachers and their children had a massive advantage. It certainly wasn’t chat. MFL students are thin on the ground in all but the top tier universities. They need the bums on seats or they close departments. I certainly heard about cut backs when DD was looking 10 years ago! It’s dog eat dog for the best MFL students and yes, DD did believe it was easier for those with native speaker parents to get a first for the reasons I outlined above. A MFL degree isn't just speaking! It’s about immersing in the culture. If you have done this from the age dot, you have an advantage.

My friend (we are over 60) did an MFL degree and she has a German Mum. She went to Germany every summer. She even did her year abroad staying with her granny! Working in their German company. Quite frankly, that’s a shoe in for a great degree for minimal effort. It’s not new but it’s a problem. How are these students to be identified and asked to do a different course when we know universities need them.?

even native speakers have to learn.
usually the spoken language at home is informal and of limited vocabulary unless it's massively pushed at home/saturday school.

Agree with Iamalways. My children are billingual. I would be very disappointed if they chose to study French at an English university; total wasted opportunity. If they chose to study French literature at a French university, that would be different.

Agree, I wouldn't consider it any more odd than a native English speaker studying English Language/Literature or American Studies. If they take up a language Ab Initio at degree level the pace of learning can be quite accelerated.

What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?

Do you wonder why English people study English at university? A language at degree level is so much more than the nuts and bolts of the actual language.

"What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?"

I wonder if there's any research into whether you're more likely to get a first in those circumstances? If you're going to university primarily to get "a degree" (and many students quite reasonably are) then it might make sense, especially if there's nothing else you're particularly desperate to study.

they [Ofqual} could not have foreseen the situation where populations are more mobile and therefore there are so many hidden and not-so-hidden candidates for whom it's not really a foreign language at all.

Interesting - though now that it's arisen, the real question is how to address it. Does the Ofqual report talk about the possibility of using criteria referencing rather than norm referencing for mfls - at least in cases where there is a high proportion of native speakers taking the exam (afair the proportion in the highest was nearly 20% of candidates - but some time since I read the report!)?

What on earth is the point in going to university to study a language you already know?

I cannot imagine any employer being at all impressed by that.

Of course if it's hidden, they would definitely get away with it.

My daughter is bilingual and if she thought for one second that I'd let her get away with that kind of nonsense, she'd have another think coming.

Interestingly my step dad did an A level in his first language. He was always being told to correct his pronunciation as he has a strong regional accent in his language (think the wurzels vs RP for an idea of the contrast). So I guess speaking a language and meeting exam criteria are not necessarily the same.

Not really thought about this. Dd doing A level French and on track to get a very good grade. She is a non native speaker.

At university it’s a blend of skills. Yes, essays are written in English but you have to read the books in the target language. Most top universities require this in depth so the linguistics side comes into every aspect of work, except writing essays. However a better understanding of what you are reading and choices of options can greatly help the native speaker in tailoring their degree to their life experiences.

People won’t declare anything! Getting ahead of others and using your skills is just part of life! We have seen many more workers from abroad in the last 15-20 years and this has impacted MFL. Nothing has really been done about it because the Brits don’t value MFL and the universities want bums on seats and the best candidates!

One advantage of MFL is that most universities (not even Oxford when I last looked) want an A*. If they did, they wouldn’t get so many applicants. In fact it’s perfectly ok to do MFL with much lower grades at some universities.

I wouldn’t put anyone off but it can be dispiriting. My cleaner’s DD left her Spanish course due to feeling inferior and they couldn’t afford to go to Spain at all. Ever. My DD did well but she’s tough!

Yes, I wondered if that would be the case. I did A levels in the mid 80s. Literature was a big part of the exam, from what I remember. There was a lot of translation too, both ways. Every grammatical or spelling mistake you were docked a mark. It was more academic but less communicative, I suppose. I liked the mathematical element of languages, the patterns and the grammar. I wasn’t very interested in real life communicative skills. In fact, there was very little speaking and listening altogether compared to the other sections.

My hunch is that the increased proportion of native speakers has really come about in the past 10-20 yrs or so Daisy - not sure if that would incorporate you, or not?!

Also in the very old days the literature papers involved writing essays in English, so for about a thrid of the syllabus there was no particular advantage to being a native speaker once you were in the exam room. (Or at all really - it would have made it quicker to read the book I suppose, but then there were always translations available as well!) Obviously for the language and oral segments it would still have been an advantage.

Meant to add, I did both French and German at A level and got A’s in both- this was before the A* grade. No foreign speakers in my family. I didn’t know anyone foreign at all - grew up somewhere rural- and nor had I ever been abroad!

"There is no need for people to feel put off doing MFL because of native speakers. And if the exam boards are aware they should offer two courses."

Ofqual are indeed aware, and I think a couple of years ago did some research into the proportions of native speakers taking each mfl at a level. As a result of that they decided to change the grade boundaries in some subjects. to award a higher proportion of As and A*s to try to compensate. Whether that fully compensates the non native speakers I don't know.

The simple solution would be to make the grades criterion referenced rather than norm referenced, - so that provided you reach a certain level of competence you get the A or A* (rather than the top x and y % getting them). Native speakers would probably perform way above the level, but would that matter? I know all other A levels are norm referenced but I think mfls pose a particular problem. (Not quite the same as the physics teacher parent because the extent of the advantage can be so great)

Separate exams for native and non-native might be another answer, but very difficult to define a native speaker. As BB says, one grandparent talking in the language could confer a significant advantage, ditto spending 4 weeks with relations in the country every summer. And would you rely on self-declaration/

A friend who studied French at a top university became dispirited because so many others were native speakers. It hadn’t occurred to her that there would be native speakers on the course.

Well WW1 was 100 years ago but many of us don’t gave linguists anywhere in the family and have just had to support DC in any way we can. However there are definitely students in MFL that have family advantages and they tend to do very well.

When looking at degree courses, adding in a language can result in a lower offer or an offer! Many universities are short of MFL students so it’s always worth keeping up
a language. Add it to Economics or even maths!

In same situation. Dd taking French and Spanish A level and almost all her classmates are bilingual from birth. We’ve concluded it will benefit her rather than put her at a disadvantage. Taking Maths and economics too so no idea how this will translate into a uni course atm!