MFL and native speakers

IrmaFayLear · 2019-06-05T12:11:20+00:00

Dd is considering A Level French. Should she? Because, as I suspected, from the Ofqual website: *we know from anecdotal evidence that there are concerns about the potential impact of native speakers on A level MFL results. In particular, there are concerns that the number of native speakers is increasing and that, as a result, students for whom the MFL is a second language are being disadvantaged. * There were other details about how half of those gaining A* were native speakers, and they were heavily impacting the grade boundaries. This is serious stuff for dd, who is quite ambitious.

Original poster

IrmaFayLear · 12/04/2023 09:37

I think it was better in my day when the A Level was very literature based. You might say that the speaking is more relevant, and of course it is, but focusing on the written word levels the playing field somewhat.

Also when I were a lass there were no native speakers in my classes, and I did three MFL. Now it’s so different and makes it in many cases impossible to compete.

Fof university entrance it’s impossible to tell if s kid’s name is, say, Sarah Smith. You wouldn’t know if her mum’s name was Merkel or Macron. That being said, ds’s MFL mates at Oxbridge had no family connections. One brilliant girl had never even been abroad.

OP posts:

ColouringPencils · 12/04/2023 09:25

Interesting thread. I have a DC planning to take German A level, so it's a bit shocking that 17% of people taking it are native speakers.

TizerorFizz · 06/01/2023 10:09

This is from the Oxford MFL brochure. I cannot see Hispanic studies. I can also see that language is 50% of finals.

TizerorFizz · 06/01/2023 09:58

Also when a mfl is given the studies title, most people know it’s more studies topics and less language. Do culture and literature are a higher proportion. However you cannot access the literature if you are poor at the language. A lifetime of learning the language is a huge advantage.

TizerorFizz · 06/01/2023 09:55

But even if it’s 20% you must pass it. Joint honours is higher so even more skewed to native speakers doing well.

thisplaceisweird · 06/01/2023 09:52

TizerorFizz · 05/01/2023 19:19

@thisplaceisweird The fact is, dedicated parents do far more than talk about sausages and sauerkraut! They do ensure Dc read poetry and have many educational discussions to widen vocabulary. Castration would be mega hard for anyone and unusual I would have thought.

I note DDs joint MFL degree had 40/120 credits as compulsory language modules. So 10% is lightweight. That’s the difference between “studies” and more academic MFL.

Perhaps 10% is incorrect and it was a 20 credit spanish lang module out of 120 credits, I don't remember exactly but my point was it's a real minority out of the whole course.

thisplaceisweird · 06/01/2023 09:50

TizerorFizz · 05/01/2023 19:19

@thisplaceisweird The fact is, dedicated parents do far more than talk about sausages and sauerkraut! They do ensure Dc read poetry and have many educational discussions to widen vocabulary. Castration would be mega hard for anyone and unusual I would have thought.

I note DDs joint MFL degree had 40/120 credits as compulsory language modules. So 10% is lightweight. That’s the difference between “studies” and more academic MFL.

This was at Oxford... That’s the difference between “studies” and more academic MFL 'academic MFL' could be anything. The degree is called Hispanic Studies or Spanish and Latin American studies (BA).

What do you think 'Academic MFL' is?

CoolSlinky · 06/01/2023 07:09

thisplaceisweird · 05/01/2023 10:35

I had to talk about chemical castration and post war poetry in my language a-levels so not really the vocabulary you get from the kitchen table.

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Ds did French A level and the social history/political topics they explored really put him off - he just didn't have the interest/ability to discuss them in English never mind French, it was all too much, unexpected and it was likely he was too immature in his interests - his Uni course covers similar topics but now at 19 he's engaged and wanting to learn about political ideas and how society is structured.
The mix at 16/17 just didn't work for him and he's horrified now by how little French he remembers - I'm sure he'd pick it up quickly if he ever moved to France but otherwise I'm not sure he sees a big value in it.

TizerorFizz · 05/01/2023 19:19

@thisplaceisweird The fact is, dedicated parents do far more than talk about sausages and sauerkraut! They do ensure Dc read poetry and have many educational discussions to widen vocabulary. Castration would be mega hard for anyone and unusual I would have thought.

I note DDs joint MFL degree had 40/120 credits as compulsory language modules. So 10% is lightweight. That’s the difference between “studies” and more academic MFL.

thisplaceisweird · 05/01/2023 10:35

BubblesBuddy · 13/06/2019 23:35

Speaking doesn’t help with vocabulary? Since when? It’s how young children learn to speak a language isn’t it?

Of course a very limited vocabulary wouldn’t be an advantage but many DC are getting way more than that from parents and grandparents. There is travel, immersion in the language, reading and all sorts of other advantages that are evident and it was found to be a help to students but a smaller of students than was thought. However as they couldn’t decide what a native speaker was, and schools barely cooperated, it was difficult to know many students benefit from this input.

I had to talk about chemical castration and post war poetry in my language a-levels so not really the vocabulary you get from the kitchen table.

thisplaceisweird · 05/01/2023 10:32

IAmRubbishAtDIY · 05/06/2019 13:37

I have heard that native speakers do degrees,which no-one has been able to explain to me in a way that made sense .

A French or Spanish degree is really only partially about the language, and more about the culture of the country. A 'Hispanic studies' degree may have 10 modules comprised of:

Spanish history
Portguese history
Carribean and portugese literature
The Spanish civil war
Spanish civil war literature
Film in post-war spain
Spanish Language
Basque Language
Galician Language
Catalan Language
Spanish female literature

and so on..

Only 10% is the actual language, and most of this is about being able to express or translate complex concepts or issues in a language. Not something that being able to chat to your Spanish granny once a year necessarily helps with.

Nurserymumm · 05/01/2023 10:28

@Wannakisstheteacher totally understand why he wouldn't. I think globalisation & languages will be a huge thing in the future. My dc are in school with lots of multilingual kids & many monolingual like themselves.
For instance her friend of Russian heritage speaks fluent Russian, Ukrainian, German (as her grandparents moved to Germany after the fall of communism) & a small bit of Romanian as her aunt, uncle &, cousins live in Romania. Add the cultural capital on top of that. Pre the war there was many trips home to Russia. But the family are improvising. Meet family in Germany & are going to Romania skiing at half term.

TizerorFizz · 05/01/2023 08:34

@Wannakisstheteacher
The only way is to be brilliant yourself! Otherwise is very demoralizing. Shame he didn’t progress his German because universities are desperate for students to study German.

Wannakisstheteacher · 04/01/2023 19:41

This is why I’ve steered DS from A level German. All the other kids who want to do it at his school are half German, or in one case actually fully German 🤔I just don’t see how it’s possible to overcome that level of advantage.

TizerorFizz · 21/11/2022 13:11

@BackT
Yes, but the speaking and listening was easy! So everyone else who learns from age 11 has it tougher! They don’t have the advantage of speaking all their lives.

BackT · 06/11/2022 20:09

I did a level MFL in a language I am bilingual in.
What I would say is that I had never written it or learnt it formally and the course was still tough. The literature was the hardest.
I got an A though (too old for A*).

TizerorFizz · 20/10/2022 19:08

@Simonjt
You do know the exams are somewhat different! MFL exams here are designed for DC learning from scratch, but not from birth. With a bit of work, they are easy.

Dinaprettyballerina · 20/10/2022 13:19

Yes I guess you could look at it that way.

Simonjt · 20/10/2022 09:37

IAmRubbishAtDIY · 05/06/2019 13:37

I have heard that native speakers do degrees,which no-one has been able to explain to me in a way that made sense .

Yeah, like native english speakers studying english language in england.

Dinaprettyballerina · 20/10/2022 09:34

I agree, there is huge advantages & the hidden advantages of being immersed in a different culture is invaluable.

TizerorFizz · 19/10/2022 20:11

@Dinaprettyballerina
and so are Dc with French/fluent grandparents! It’s quite obvious it makes a difference to all MFLs. Learning from very young, knowing the idiosyncrasies of a country snd it’s customs is invaluable. Shame school didn’t do a study trip for all.

Dinaprettyballerina · 19/10/2022 09:29

CherryPavlova · 07/06/2019 09:09

My daughter has just returned from her year abroad in third year of a four year degree. She is not a native speaker in either of the degree languages.
I can’t think she as hugely disadvantaged by native speakers at any point. The cohort in most languages is too small to impact. It’s the minority MFL such as Polish or Romanian that are truly advantaged and given the struggles many of those children have faced, it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
She was a good French speaker as she learnt from nursery age and from holidays/ grandparents who are fluent. Spanish is her first MFL which she starts in year 8. She got a 7 higher in her IB without too much difficulty. She had never spoken Italian until university but after a year in Verona is pretty fluent.
She’s aiming for a first but is very unlikely to teach.

I know this is a zombie but thread but stumbled accross it on a search. I believe also the minority languages such as Polish etc are truely advantaged. We have a huge Polish community in DCs school, Polish is spoken at home, summers, Easter & Christmas all spent in Poland. They are hugely immersed in the culture & many go to Polish school in my town on weekends to sing Polish songs, history, geography & basically continue to keep up their culture.
On top of that they all have perfect English, very driven parents & are excelling in school. With Ryanair & their cheap flights the families often pop back to Poland for a weekend..
I remember when dc3 was studying ww2 history a Polish mum with twins took her dc to Krackow the following weekend just to visit all the ww2 sites..
Even though this thread is 3 years old I do agree that the minority language speakers such as the Polish are at a massive advantage

GazeboParty · 10/06/2020 19:29

I have a dc doing French A level - Year 12. We did consider the native speaker aspect but ds really enjoys French - it's not easy but it's his favourite A Level and probably the one he works hardest at. He started his GCSE with a predicted grade 5 and he got a grade 9. Can you imagine the sense of achievement he felt? There is so much more to education than getting an A or a 9 - finding something hard but having the grit and the commitment to see it through and achieve what you wanted. He might not get an A in his A level, he doesn't want to study French at Uni - he wants to learn French to live there so I think either a sandwich course with a year in France or a joint degree - for him no doubt he will need to do a Masters in something more vocational. Being an MFL teacher - not for him!

frenchspeaker123 · 19/05/2020 16:29

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BubblesBuddy · 13/06/2019 23:35

Speaking doesn’t help with vocabulary? Since when? It’s how young children learn to speak a language isn’t it?

Of course a very limited vocabulary wouldn’t be an advantage but many DC are getting way more than that from parents and grandparents. There is travel, immersion in the language, reading and all sorts of other advantages that are evident and it was found to be a help to students but a smaller of students than was thought. However as they couldn’t decide what a native speaker was, and schools barely cooperated, it was difficult to know many students benefit from this input.