Beavers vs Brownies/Cubs

Absolutely.

Trouble is that we're so incredibly stretched for leaders that I'm not sure we could have done it any other way.

But wouldn't collaboration and sharing expertise be a better idea than losing the unique qualities offered by single-sex groupings?
So that each group could take on board the best that the other group was offering?

I agree - I think. I would agree a lot more if my dd hadn't got such a lot out of Scouts and I I didn't know that she wouldn't have got anything like as much out of the available Guides!

Actually I think out area is a bit different, because we have Sea Scouts who sail and canoe and make rafts and zip wires over the lake and stuff like that, and none of the local Guide troops do. And it was very unfair when it was only boys who could join Scouts and do that sort of stuff.

'I suppose the issue is that there are some girls whose parents wouldn't let them join if they couldn't guarantee an all girl space'

I agree seeker, but I think that boys should be accorded the same understanding and acceptance that they are allowed to want an all male group.

I suppose the issue is that there are some girls whose parents wouldn't let them join if they couldn't guarantee an all girl space.

I am ambivalent about the Scouts taking girls - delighted for my dd because it's perfect for her (it balances out her "girlyness" which is reinforced by going to an all girl's school!) but sad that there isn't a boys only space any more.

I think it's very sad that sex equality doesn't work both ways in every instance. My son's group did have three girls in it, and they were welcomed. However, due to the very robust activities, combined with the fact that they discovered boys in a different sense when they hit 12 or so, his group is now all male.
And very happy they are too.

Our beavers, cubs and scouts also have a waiting list....I can't remember a time when the beavers and cubs didn't. The scout group did go through a lean patch but it's up to full strength again now. There are girls in both beavers and cubs but the first 2 girls don't move to scouts until Christmas. So in our area at least girls have not 'saved' scouting!

The choice about whether or not to take girls is not up to individual leaders. They have to take them. Our leaders held out as long as possible.....they really did want it to stay boys only. There are 2 rainbow & brownie packs and the guides (all thriving) so the girls aren't missing out.

I still help every week at cubs. After the summer about 25% will be girls. Some go to brownies as well. The girls are lovely and I'm not anti girl. I have 1 DD who was a brownie and many years ago I was one myself! I also have 5 DS who passed through scouting. I think it's a shame boys can no longer have 1 or 2 hours a week in a boy only environment.

I think girls have changed cubs. They are certainly very keen on the badge work. Some boys are quite happy to do the group badges we do at cub night or at camp, but are not so interested in doing the homework necessary to get a arm full of awards!
So basically the girls do out class many of the boys.....just like they do in school.

1dilemma - I know it is just brilliant. I want to join too. They do have open days when grown ups can play with the canoes and things!

I'm just so scared the leader is going to retire before ds has had his turn there. So much depends on the leaders, and it's such a commitment that people can't do it these days with commuting and long working hours and things.

ah well that's the wonder of mumsnet
looks like I was pretty wrong and I take it all back
(although I will be interested to see how many girls are in the scouts here in relation to waiting lists etc etc)

seeker can I join your scouts please?

Our Scouts has a waiting list. But that's probably because we have a wood and a lake and a fabulous old school leader who is excellent at letting them take risks without getting in to actual danger. Oh, and a home made outdoor pizza oven!

Apparently so. And not only have girls boosted their falling rolls, but even more importantly, almost half of adult leaders are now female.

I didn't know that the scouts had had problems!

The Guiding Association's point of view is that it has always been a girl only space. Many of them would rather cynically (but not necessarily unfairly) argue that the reason Scouting opened to girls was to combat falling rolls, which is not an issue for Guiding. We could fill our units twice over if we had enough adults prepared to become Guiders.

DS's troop leader is a woman, and she does an amazing job.

DS is a beaver and absolutely loves it. About a quarter of his troop are girls and I think that's great. I want my son to have adventures and get muddy and wet and dirty with girls, as his equals, being just as boisterous.

I think, the best thing is to go along for a trial at your local group and see what your DD thinks, of both rainbows and beavers. Let her choose. Some girls prefer an all girls atmosphere. I think boys don't really mind so much, I like the fact that beavers is mixed.

Shame boys can't join the girl guides if they wanted to though.

1dilemma - I'm constantly finding examples of where the two organisations do things differently, although generally it's smaller beer than admitting the other sex (or not).

As this conversation's been continuing, I've been googling to look for the background to each organisations's decision on admitting the other sex and it seems the decisions were taken in the 1990s, so long after the Sex Discrimination Act (from which, as membership organisations, I think they're exempt anyway, although I haven't checked this point). I also found an article which seemed to say that, although Scouting as an organisation decided to admit girls, each unit can then make its own decision. So that suggests that units which wanted to remain as a boys-only space could do so.

Interesting mad bad

I'd assumed that this was one organisation applying equality legislation in one way and another not
I can't remember reading anything about what the scouts felt at the time

tsar what seeker said does sound like that particular branch has been 'taken over' if the positions tend to go to the girls that is presumably one important aspect the boys are missing out on.

Generally speaking when men talk about not being allowed to be men any more, in my experience what they mean is that they are not allowed to be boorish, crass and sexist any more!

But in the case of the Scouts I do think there is an issue. I read somewhere that in troops that have girls, a disproportionate number of the Patrol Leaders are girls - and that's certainly true in ours. The boys tend to let the girls get on with it rather than stepping up to the platre themselves. A shame.

Um I don't think girls have taken anything over, as such.

The activities that they run are invariably quite pysical so any girls joining Beavers and Cubs will be intersted in that kind thing. They haven't started doing girly orientated stuff just because girls have joined up.

The inequality if there is one is in not opening Brownies and Guides to boys that might prefer it.

I was trying to say that earlier on. Scouts gives DS a chance to run around at the end of the week getting rid of excess energy and testosterone
I think boys need a place where they can be boys. I think there is a thread on AIBU where a DP/H said that men can't be men anymore or something like that and this is a classic example.

Is it unfair, though? I'm assuming (as I don't know the history) that the Scouts consulted their own members about whether to admit girls and the members voted to let them in. And it's the members of Guiding who want to remain a girls-only organisation. So, even though the two organisations reached different decisions, they both (as far as I know) did so in line with their members' wishes.

I agree too
I'm quite shocked that the girls can go to one but the boys can't go to the other
what seeker said about her troop sounds a bit sad TBH
after reading/watching on TV all the stuff about school being more girl orientated etc it's sad for boys that something else is being taken over

I find this very interesting. In our area there is a very definite demarcation between Rainbows,Brownies and Guides, who tend to be a bit more indoorsy and craft oriented and Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, who are more yomping through woods and getting wet-ish. My dd is a very enthusiastic Scout and has a great time. When she joined there were only a few girls, but now it is half and half and the girls take most of the positions of responsibility. I do feel sad that the boys seem to have been taken over by the invading girls - it's a very different troop now. I do wonder whether it's fair that girls have their own girls only place but boys don't. Ds is a Cub and it so happens that there are no girls in his pack. It is a very "boy-y" place "It was cool, mum. We lit fires and made toast and Akela gave us chocolate spread then we hit each other with sticks until it was time to fall in".

With a ds and dd's we've tried them all.

Tbh the girls settled much more happily into Beavers and Cubs (and soon Scouts) than Brownies. It does depend on who is running them though it's true.

We found Brownies was rather tame in comparison to what was going on over in Beavers and Cubs, but I'm sure others packs are run differently.

There are a good amount of girls in Beavers and Cubs. More boys it's true, but dd's have not had any problem with this. They are outdoorsy/sporty types, but still very girly and they seem to fit in very well with what's going on.

We did go through a tricky time when dd2 got into a situation where she was a Brownie and a Beaver. It was far too much - the ferrying about and commitment to two things at once got ridiculous. So she made a choice to leave Brownies and the ferrying about scaled down as a result. What relief!