Should I let DS give up DofE bronze

maddy68 · 18/04/2023 10:10

My adhd son did his d of e and faced similar difficulties. It was really good for him. He gained a lot of independence. He didn't actually complete the award as he didn't do the voluntary stuff to completion. But he still gained from it.

Speak to the teacher in charge

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 18/04/2023 10:04

I cant believe schools charge so much for Dofe, I run an Army Cadet unit and we charge £27.00 for bronze and silver and £30.00 for gold. £20.00 for exped weekend, with all kit thrown in.

It shouldn't be a big task for him to find volunteering, our cadets help out at the detachment, run the tuck shop or look after the new recruits.

drspouse · 18/04/2023 09:55

When I did my Bronze (in the dark ages) we stayed in a youth hostel for Bronze and camped for Silver. I have to say if I was leading a group of 14 year olds I'm not sure I'd want to teach them independent camping from scratch at 14 (it's different if you're doing it through Scouts etc.).

Original poster

Odilon · 18/04/2023 09:43

Not sure why this post is suddenly getting traction again but anyway, it's all sorted. I talked to the teacher and got reassurance about a few things that were bothering him and us. The volunteering thing came together at the last minute too. So anyway he's doing it (willingly). He's still nervous about the walk but finally admitted that he'd feel worse if everyone else did it and he was left out. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

OP posts:

Motheranddaughter · 18/04/2023 03:35

Of course you should let him stop

Bumply · 16/04/2023 21:13

We get DoE volunteers at my local parkrun.
He'd need to have an adult with him at his age, but depending on the role that could just be another volunteer keeping an eye on him.

adulthumanfemalemum · 16/04/2023 21:04

My experience of the expedition is that a teacher is present overnight, it's just the walking they do on their own.

For all those saying the expedition is a horrible thing to be avoided, you should consider that doing things that are hard or not always pleasant is actually character building and can bring unexpected benefits. I went on a horrendous camping/hiking trip once (non D of E), badly organised, awful food, terrible overcrowded tents, pouring rain, etc. The people in my group, who I didn't know well at all beforehand became close friends I have stayed in touch with for 20 years, partly because of the sense of community we had to foster and the sense of achievement we felt by the end.

nordicwannabe · 19/03/2023 09:40

Getting him to pay you back the money seems a bit strange to me. The money has gone, whether he completes it or not.

I think what would be more reasonable would be to explain to him what you hoped he'd achieve from this: personal growth in terms of skills and community engagement; pushing himself outside his comfort zone and persisting through problems; and independently achieving a substantial goal.

Then ask him to problem solve with you how he can still achieve those same things in another way. If he manages to come up with a convincing plan and commits to it then he can quit DoE.

The money's gone now though, so if he wants to organise a hostelling trip with his best friend in a nearby city where a skateboarding competition is taking place, then they'll need to work/save for that (but it will probably be less than £150). Over the summer, he can find a way to volunteer/engage with the community that works for him.

I'd set him timescale to fulfil the plan and have a clear idea from him about exactly what he'll do and how he'll achieve it before agreeing to drop the DoE though.

If he has an option of a different way out, he'll stop panicking and start problem-solving. Although he may decide that completing DoE the traditional way is easier after all

rookiemere · 28/02/2023 19:26

As I think others have said parkrun is good for volunteering and should accept that age.

DS ended up not completing his because the stubborn sausage refused to complete his online skills training sessions that I had paid for and I learned a valuable lesson about passions having to come from the DC themselves.

In your DS case, I wonder if it's possible to keep going as long as possible and defer making a decision on the camping. If however that's just continuing to make him anxious and upset, I'd let him cancel, but do make him do say 15 hours of extra chores to "pay" you back.

Original poster

Odilon · 28/02/2023 19:13

@Mojoj Um… no, that’s exactly why I’ve been annoyed with him and tried every argument to persuade him to continue. I am passionately against giving up at the first hurdle and have always gone out of my way to insist that he doesn’t do this. However I am trying to weigh this up against his immaturity (if you’d read my post properly you would see he’s several months away from turning 14 - the joint youngest in the year group) and his increasingly apparent difficulties with organisational skills, so it’s not a straightforward call.

Strange that you felt it necessary to quote my entire post back at me and yet were unable to demonstrate this basic level of reading comprehension. Everyone else on here got it.

OP posts:

icefishing · 28/02/2023 18:30

Dd struggled through bronze award. Was really pushed by the camping trip.
But she has signed up for silver and her adhd brother is joining her because he thought he missed out.
They are 15.
I think it is because she isn't that sporty, outdoorsy or inclined to volunteer that I want her to do it. It stretches her in ways that school work doesn't.

Mojoj · 28/02/2023 18:14

Odilon · 28/02/2023 09:11

DS 13, yr 9, summer baby so not 14 until end of the summer term. Also currently undergoing ADHD assessment. School is one of those where DofE is semi compulsory, they do army cadets and DofE combined for one period per week (though this stops next year once they’re onto GCSEs). Only one kid in his year not doing it - don’t know why or what this child does during that period.

Basically we have paid the full fee for Bronze but DS is now saying he doesn’t want to do it at all. They all signed up at school but he’s done basically nothing so far. His skills and physical sections are activities which he would be doing anyway, but despite our best efforts we’ve struggled to find him anything to do for volunteering - people not responding, or saying they only have opportunities over the summer etc - and his dad & I aren’t really enmeshed in the local community enough to know anyone that can help so it’s been super stressful. Even the skills & physical teachers don’t seem interested and I’ve sent multiple emails about them signing him off but never get a reply.

For DS though he is freaking out about the expedition. He’s been put in a group with two friends who are also ND and not really coping with the putting up of tents etc, leaving my DS to do more than his fair share when it’s not something he’s ever done before. We’re not outdoorsy and I have no idea how to help him. I’ve suggested he talk to the teacher about it but apparently she’s said the groups can’t be changed, so he won’t . The fourth boy in the group is apparently ‘very bossy’ (DS’s words) and DS doesn’t like him.

He now says he wants to give it up and has told the teacher this. She told him okay, she can’t force him, but that we have to confirm in writing that we’re happy for him to withdraw because we’ve already paid, but I don’t know what to do. He’s absolutely dreading the walking, the camping overnight, the No Phones rule (which personally I think is crazy) and tbh I’m pretty worried about it as well.

But I’m not keen on him giving things up just because it’s a bit daunting. I don’t think it sets kids up well for life to do that (speaking from my own personal experience) and I think he’ll get a sense of achievement from having completed it even if he doesn’t enjoy it. He’s the kind who would just stay on his phone or computer and never talk to an adult if he could get away with it, so I was keen for him to do this to get out of his comfort zone a bit.

We also can’t really afford to throw away the £150 fee that we’ve paid, but DS says he’d rather get a job and pay us back this money. Which is all well and good but idk what jobs he could do at 13 either (no paper rounds available nearby - I’ve checked) and he’ll barely have time once yr10 starts, with his other extracurriculars as well.

TL;DR - should I force suspected ADHD DS13 to continue with DofE bronze for ‘character building’ reasons and because we’ve already paid, when he doesn’t want to do it and it’s causing me stress? Also - does anyone know, for the overnight camping are the teachers/leaders usually nearby? I’m ok with them walking unsupervised but he feels very young to be camping overnight without adults. Thanks.

This is why you should make him do it. The no phones rule is so that the kids will actually engage with one another and focus on the tasks at hand. At 14, he's old enough to cope surely? Or you do have a problem. All you're teaching him is that when things feel too hard, you just give up.

JanusTheFirst · 28/02/2023 18:06

Both DSs refused point blank to do DoE. Not their thing. School not best pleased but couldn't force them.

Original poster

Odilon · 28/02/2023 18:00

LittleOwl153 · 28/02/2023 17:02

So... First thing he has till he's 25 to complete. However most of the cost you've paid will relate to doing his expedition this year in school.

Therefore I'd forget the volunteering right now if it isn't working out for him. The other two sections are easy to sign off if he is doing the work. I can send you pics of the forms if you need them as they are generic. They can also log onto the system using your sons DofE number and complete it there (though the paper form might be easier for the reluctant sign off!) Help him get these signed off it might motivate him to continue.

Expedition wise I would definitely talk to the teacher in charge of DofE and if need be get the SENDCo involved with sorting out the grouping. I'd have thought they'd rather relook at things than have him drop out. 'No you can't change groups just because you don't like a kid' is standard practice but 'combination of SENDs is causing an issue in this group' should be addressed.

At the end of the day if he's adamant he doesn't want to finish I wouldn't force him - but I would try and address some of these issues first before confirming the drop out.

Thanks, this pretty much exactly what I plan to do. The organising teacher is calling me later and I will try to tactfully explain to her the concerns about the group. I’d tried to get DS to tell her this was an issue but I think he doesn’t want to be seen as complaining about his friends especially if they have SENs.

I imagine that she’s put this group together thinking that the ‘bossy’ one and my DS (who can hide his issues pretty well and whom I know she’s identified as having ‘leadership qualities’ from the cadets thing) would balance out the difficulties that the other two might be having. But I agree it’s no good if it’s just stressing him out.

If told him there was no rush to complete it but he understandably doesn’t want to delay doing the expedition and be forced to do it next year instead with the year group below whom he doesn’t know. So I suggested just getting the expedition out of the way this year and then doing the rest at a more leisurely pace, maybe over the summer for the volunteering when there might be more options. But the expedition is the hurdle in his mind right now. I’ll see what the teacher says tonight.

Thanks all for your help.

OP posts:

Beamur · 28/02/2023 17:35

I don't think he's ready.
Have to agree that doing activities he's already doing and you organising his volunteering isn't really helping with independence and resilience.
I'd check with the providers and see how long he has to finish it. He may find this all a lot more rewarding in a year or two.
The exped doesn't sound promising tbh. He needs to be part of a team with mixed skills and who can work together - otherwise it's just going to be a miserable slog.

LittleOwl153 · 28/02/2023 17:02

So... First thing he has till he's 25 to complete. However most of the cost you've paid will relate to doing his expedition this year in school.

Therefore I'd forget the volunteering right now if it isn't working out for him. The other two sections are easy to sign off if he is doing the work. I can send you pics of the forms if you need them as they are generic. They can also log onto the system using your sons DofE number and complete it there (though the paper form might be easier for the reluctant sign off!) Help him get these signed off it might motivate him to continue.

Expedition wise I would definitely talk to the teacher in charge of DofE and if need be get the SENDCo involved with sorting out the grouping. I'd have thought they'd rather relook at things than have him drop out. 'No you can't change groups just because you don't like a kid' is standard practice but 'combination of SENDs is causing an issue in this group' should be addressed.

At the end of the day if he's adamant he doesn't want to finish I wouldn't force him - but I would try and address some of these issues first before confirming the drop out.

Drizzlepeacefully · 28/02/2023 16:55

My on feeling is that I want my son to have a go .. if it’s a disaster and he doesn’t complete it I don’t intend to force him . As much can be learnt from failure as success provided it’s handled well

Drizzlepeacefully · 28/02/2023 16:54

OP if I was you I would speak to whoever is organising the expedition and see what the process is on the expedition is if it all goes wrong for your son taking into account his needs and the pending ADHD … is poor that you weren’t told it was for the kids to organise themselves which would concern me about how organised they are in other things

Original poster

Odilon · 28/02/2023 16:42

Drizzlepeacefully · 28/02/2023 16:22

OP - my son doesn’t really want to do it either , however I think that he should . He has done nothing about the volunteering or skills but has a sport that he’s doing the six months for .

My son is pretty shy and worried about the expedition and he’s only camped twice . He isn’t diagnosed ND .

I have not been trying to organise stuff for him though I have made suggestions . I really want him to find the courage to do it himself

As others have said they have till 25 to get there and I’m hopeful my boy will pull it all together rather than be left behind by his year .

If it goes well I think the expedition could be a really formative experience.

I don’t think my boy should give up before he even tries but I have no intention of signing him up for the silver !

Yes, see, this is how I felt about it too except that it was never made clear to us that the kids were expected to take the initiative on organising it all. Tbh with the volunteering I have no idea how he would have done so, as we had no leads and had to try to reach out through local FB groups and acquaintances. All to no avail, as it’s turned out. Maybe people would have been more responsive if we’d turned it over to him rather than hassling them (as it felt like) ourselves. But he’s shy and getting increasingly awkward around adults. I just hoped this would help him get over that a bit if we just kind of gave him a metaphorical shove over the threshold.

To those asking why I’ve been emailing, it’s partly the above and partly to do with the sport part. He was in a feeder squad and had handed the forms to the coach of that team (who’s also the overall head coach) who had agreed to do it. But then very shortly afterwards, DS was promoted to the next team up which is coached by someone else at a different location. When we met the new coach, I said ‘Oh btw, Head Coach has DS’s DofE forms - shall I ask him to give them to you?’ But she gave some non committal response and I didn’t hear anything else. There’s never any opportunity to talk to them at the sessions and if you try, they always say ‘Email me’, so I did, again with no response.

OP posts:

celestebellman · 28/02/2023 16:32

I also dropped out of D of E bronze aged 16 due to the impending horror of the expedition. It was a great relief and had no impact on my future career - I still managed to get on to a competitive course at a good university without it, and to be honest was only doing it as I had convinced myself I would never get into university for the degree I wanted without it (which was clearly wrong). I have never since felt the need to walk for miles carrying a rucksack or to camp in a tent, and do not feel
I have missed out.
You indicated he is doing some extracurricular activities anyway, which would fulfil the skills element - I think if he is engaging in some kind of hobby/ activity that allows him not to be on a screen then I'd let him drop it. It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea - the thought of being cold, wet, dirty, uncomfortable and miles away from hot running water still fills me with dread.

starpatch · 28/02/2023 16:31

I think the character building bit is about pushing kids to follow through on things when they are motivated but feeling a bit daunted. Your description doesn't sound like that but that he isn't motivated and just doesn't want to do it at all. I would let him give it up if you think he won't regret it.

Drizzlepeacefully · 28/02/2023 16:22

OP - my son doesn’t really want to do it either , however I think that he should . He has done nothing about the volunteering or skills but has a sport that he’s doing the six months for .

My son is pretty shy and worried about the expedition and he’s only camped twice . He isn’t diagnosed ND .

I have not been trying to organise stuff for him though I have made suggestions . I really want him to find the courage to do it himself

As others have said they have till 25 to get there and I’m hopeful my boy will pull it all together rather than be left behind by his year .

If it goes well I think the expedition could be a really formative experience.

I don’t think my boy should give up before he even tries but I have no intention of signing him up for the silver !

Choconut · 28/02/2023 16:10

Volunteering is easy at this level, just get him to volunteer in the school library after school once a week or help with a lunchtime club for younger students doing something he's good at/enjoys.

Why are you emailing teachers to sign things off for him?? Get him to go and speak to them himself - they may want to see some evidence.

Tell him on the camping trip to just let the bossy one lead and to direct on how to put up the tents - having a bossy/leader type can be really useful when you're not that keen and don't know what you're doing! There will also be a practice so they can just learn how to do it then.

I would tell him you want him to complete this but he doesn't have to do any more after.

Original poster

Odilon · 28/02/2023 16:08

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/02/2023 15:29

My own DS is ND and got a lot of benefit from DofE, but he wanted to do it and they were well supported. He didn't do much over his existing activities and he did need support, for volunteering I spotted an ad and walked with him to the local charity shop, and he did the rest.

I’m not keen on him giving things up just because it’s a bit daunting.

He's not even diagnosed yet. His abilities and disabilities have not been scoped and right now his whole life probably feels more than a bit daunting. The school doesn't sound a like a very good fit and if he is still going to school (not refusing) and doing a couple of activities he's actually doing OK.

So if your DS is stressing over DofE then I don't think it's a priority right now.

The school is an excellent fit. They have been incredibly supportive of us pursuing the diagnosis and there are a great many pupils there with additional needs. Clearly another child was allowed to opt out of DofE for whatever reason with no issues, and DS said the teacher was completely unfazed when he told her he didn’t want to continue. They definitely strongly encourage them to do it and do enrol them as a default but it’s clearly fine to say no.

He loves the school and there’s no question of refusal (no idea where you got that). I suspect this is mostly about the fact that he hasn’t been put in a group with his best friends for the expedition because he was fine with it up until then. If he was with someone whom he felt he could have a laugh with, we probably wouldn’t be getting any of this angst from him about it.

I just feel it’s important to teach him the importance of committing to things at the most minimal level, and also the value of money. So whenever he’s wanted to drop any hobbies or classes or activities in the past, my default position has always been that he has to complete the period of time we’ve paid for (usually until the end of term) and then he can stop if he wants to. So the equivalent in this case was for me to say, ‘Okay, you don’t need to do silver or gold, but bronze is paid for so you need to do it.’

With some other things, he’s done this with a lot of moaning and it’s been a relief for us all when he could finally leave. Other times, just saying ‘No, you have to do it for X more weeks/months’ has pushed him through some little hurdle of self-doubt and he’s then chosen to continue with the activity and excelled at it. It can go either way and so I like to give him that chance. But if he’s really going to be miserable and every aspect of it is stressful, then I agree it’s probably a sunk cost fallacy.

OP posts:

missingthewinchesterboys · 28/02/2023 15:38

So once he's in the DofE system he has until he is 25 to complete it.
There is no rush.

There are lots of volunteering things he can do at home.
Reading for books on tape.
The crisp packet project(making blankets from crisps packets) etc.

Officially DofE is supposed to be 14+ but can be done with peers if in the school year.

I'd let him drop it if he wants to.