August Music Thread

No 1 test has to be is the child enjoying what they're doing? Alma Deutscher for example very obviously is. No 2 test, are they playing in a way you'd want to listen to regardless of age and regardless of how technically hard or easy their music is?

Doing stuff young to my mind gives people more space to play around before they have to try to make a living out of music or something else. Which is no bad thing for them musically. I guess just we have seen enough kids who are technically very able very young that it's not something that makes the news any more. Which as Patrick says is probably also no bad thing for their musical development.

The comparison of Mozart to modern prodigies is interesting in that respect. His family were obviously milking social media like mad I have heard it said that his playing ability as a child wouldn't make waves these days either.

But there are survivors of course. Though still it must be super tough.

Yes it may be rare but that's why they are called 'prodigy' or 'genius'. I think the word of 'prodigy' is being overused these days. Perlman himself said he was a very talented and driven child but certainly not a prodigy. The term was used by media not by him or his family. Having supportive parents is a great bonus though. Those who are called prodigy or even worse made to believe they are prodigy when they are actually just a very talented and hard working child the life will be super tough later on...

PatricksViolin I think it's a rare genius that doesn't have a parent behind them (and it's usually in jazz or contemporary music where an early start is less essential). The kid I talked about definitely does have parents behind him, in fact I think the mum or maybe the grandmother is a university music professor. But pushing a child into precocious achievement and facilitating their musical development are two different things. You can probably guess which is which by the number of YouTube videos of the child (none, in this case).

Sorry I posted too early!

I realised that my previous post sounded like I was denying the whole existence of prodigy but I didn't mean that. Of course there are exceptionally and naturally gifted children with and without parental input - I know a few in person too. But it's also true that there is the element of racing to achieve young not just in music but in many other areas. Also those who start over the top 'prodigy' propaganda are not necessarily always parents but people around them. Alma Deutscher's father once said his daughter being compared with Mozart was truly unnecessary and unwanted burden for a young girl. The media started it, not the family.

But I realised that my post is not at all relevant to catkind's post too! I just simply responded to her mentioning about young talents displayed on YouTube and I seemed to jump into a totally different discussion. Sorry!

Mistigri, I realised that

Sprout DD1 may have some kind of synaesthesia with regard to numbers and maths. She talks of colours and sequences being stepped - visualises them.

PatricksViolin I don't think all genuine prodigies are like that. When my DD joined our local conservatoire, her teacher had not one but two exceptional students. The younger one was only 10 at the time (and a small 10 at that). I remember watching gobsmacked at the end of year concert as he played one of the harder Chopin études, and pieces by Liszt and Rachmaninov. He could barely reach the pedals ... I'm not easily impressed but this kid was exceptional.

Two years on, he has been studying with a well-known French pianist and composer and won a prize at an international competition this year (at age 12). But he still has zero internet presence so his parents clearly have no interest in monetising his talent.

It's humbling to see musicians like that. My children have some musical ability, and my DS probably has the perseverance required to become an accomplished musician (we'll see - he was a late starter) - but they are a long way from having that sort of talent.

Loose, I always had strong interest in some specific areas and believed they were what I would pursue in all my life since very young. I changed, picked new things and did something else to make money along the way but my main interests stay pretty the same and now I'm again thinking of going back to my root (dreams and interests of my childhood) at 40+. So I suspect what DS has discovered as his main passion at his (very young) age may stay the same and if it doesn't become his career he may still keep revising it and deepening and polishing it through his life, like me! Meaning, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do!!

catkind, seeing child prodigies always has an essence of entertainment but I agree it's becoming less exiting as we can easily find plenty of them on YouTube now. This movement may finally help end the silly race of trying to achieve something very young or trying to impress the world in that way. I always feel child prodigies are a product of grow ups who want to make money out of it, and there seem to be very little gain for the poor child. Sure there are survivors but many of them actually end up suffering tremendously by losing the identity as a prodigy (because you have to be a child to be the one but we all age eventually).

Off topic, but where's Kutik? I've noticed she's not on this thread.

Patrick you've put so much thought into it and listened carefully to your child so I'm sure DS is going to throw himself into the experience! many of my students are people who finally figured out what they wanted to do after they left school! There are many different paths.

Loose, such reassurance from someone who works in education and also has older DCs therefore has been there. I know what you mean. Although I'm terribly worrying about my judgement (allowing DS to go down the specialist route so early), I also see Y7 and Y8 as possibly the best years to test out due to the flexibility before serious academic work starts. But I keep forgetting about it and going back to the same worries. Such agony of being a parent!

druid, thanks also for reminding me that DS has obtained the dream ticket to the school he's been so longing to go. My sister actually said something similar to you on pursuing dreams at young age. She said, 'if it's not now, when can he?'. She believes immersing yourself in something you feel passionate about is one of the happiest and best ways of spending teen years nevertheless the outcome. Passion and commitment will never be waste whatever you end up doing in future... I hope she is right!

It's certainly true that young people are unlikely to be buying music in HMV.
My DD mainly listens to classical music, with a preference for renaissance choral music, so a bit niche! She does listen to some jazz too, and enjoys musical theatre, but has no ambitions to do musical theatre professionally (has enjoyed it as an amateur though). She's just recently started to listen to music really carefully, analysing it. Which she'll presumably need to do for A'level. Anyone else doing A'level music?

Music is incredibly accessible to young people now. When I was a teen learning piano it was virtually impossible to listen to various interpretations of pieces before learning to play them (unless you had a parent with a massive collection of classical records). Now DS can check out his pieces on YouTube if he has any doubts about whether he's got the timing right.

The internet has made it possible for young people to teach themselves music in a way that was impossible 30 years ago. DS taught himself to play rock guitar using the internet (well enough that he was able to join a group of 3rd and 4th year students when he started lessons) and the reason he's been able to leapfrog from beginner to good intermediate standard on piano is largely down to the internet too - for eg he learnt to read music using websites and apps.

My children don't particularly distinguish between types of music, they enjoy all sorts. DS has forged his own musical taste quite independently and he as happy listening to classical music as to west coast garage rock. DD listens to everything from jazz to k-pop. I don't think there are the same "tribal" distinctions as there were when I was a kid.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it!

In our family, classical music is literally the soundtrack to our lives and so I feel it is in a far stronger position than when I was a child. We have classic FM on all the time (as a comic aside, DH wanted some 'thumping' tunes in the car on our journey to Norfolk so we put on Radio 1. The girls seemed to love it at first, but after 15 mins asked if we could listen to some 'proper' music 😂). I also stream via Spotify, who have loads of classical playlists.

When the girls are learning a new piece, we turn to streaming services and YouTube and can now find many versions of pieces to listen to and appraise rather than just the one recording that I might have been able to access.

My girls can both name numerous classical soloists and age 11 and 8, which I could never have done.

We have been to 2 proms this year, and trying to get tickets was like trying to book tickets for Glastonbury! I was over 1000th in the online queue. The concerts were sold out, attended by people from all walks of life and all generations.

Also, Noo is quite an advanced musician, but by no means unusual in her abilities these days. Competition for places in JD and National ensembles is quite frankly brutal. Competition is driven by demand, which to me indicates there is a healthy pipeline of new talent coming through (at least for now) despite the devastating cuts to School music. (An entirely different debate - I'm not for one minute suggesting that the pipeline of new talent is sustainable given the current political/ funding situation)

Not trying to shoot down your point Thomasina! I think the point I'm trying to make is that classical music has possibly never been more accessible, at least to the listener. But there are clearly many different perceptions on this which someone somewhere should probably address...??

Interesting thomasinaa. I think there have always been a small number of superstars, and there have always been brilliant players who don't quite achieve superstar status for whatever reason. I think it's a long time since HMV was really relevant to music sales. People who listen to significant quantities (I'm not one) use streaming services, and most CD sales are online. A much wider catalogue is available for instant download or near instant despatch than HMV ever had. It's very different but I'm not sure about smaller. Easier to get exposure - there's no additional cost to the user of trying out a new recording. We can get relatively unknown soloists in because we can easily go and listen to them on YouTube and see that they're brilliant, whereas on just word of mouth we might be more cautious and stick to familiar names. Otoh it's harder to become the definitive recording of something because we still have quality recordings of the previous few generations of stars.
At a junior level maybe we have less of the big fish little pond effect because of better communcation. I came across a primary kid recently who's grade 7 level in a couple of instruments. Instead of just wow, my reaction also had a degree of oh yes, I "know" some like that on MN. Similarly a 5 yr old piano prodigy is no longer something we've never seen before, we can look them up on YouTube and see dozens. So it's less easy to impress in that way. But at a local level they are still feted.

Does anyone feel that classical music is now such a small field? That you can be pretty amazing at it, and no-one really notices or cares? If you go into HMV, the classical music section is almost non-existent.

At the moment when it’s something she’s doing a lot, I can’t see how she could not carry it on at an intense level.... you'd be amazed how easily that actually happens. Music was my entire life at secondary school but the 'sensible' me decided to do science at uni. I started off in the university orchestra, but by the end of year 2 part time work, studying and parties left little room for it. I briefly played in an amateur orchestra upon starting work but didn't really come back to Music seriously until a few years ago. But now I can't imagine not doing it again!

I'll admit to pre-sixth form jitters at the moment although a lot of that is tied up with waiting for GCSE results and then worrying that I'll tell DS to enrol on the wrong day! He's fine, of course!