August Music Thread

Oh no Floot I don't think you've done anything wrong though and it sounds like you are trying to be considerate . We moved so that Ds could practise his trumpet !! But we were in a terrace and you simply couldn't escape the noise !! We still can't but at least the neighbours cant hear it ( much !!) now . I think if the piano was on the party wall that would be different but it's not . If no noise from your neighbours is important then your neighbour should live in a detached house in a field somewhere . As most of us can't do that we all just have to learn to get on- and you sound like you were lovely when you did your building work. I'm currently feeling really guilty that our neighbours are having to put up with so much noise from our builders - thankfully I think think they are moving into quiet tasks now and we will be bringing them all back from our holiday !! Plus having a party when it's finished !!

Highs and lows, musically, this week.
DH has finally got an electronic drum kit, which means he can practise at home for the first time since we've lived here ( 19 years!). He is an orchestral percussionist, but kit was his first love as a child. He tried to teach a lesson to a beginner at home on a proper kit recently but our neighbour complained, so he drove a 300 mile round trip in an afternoon this week to pick up the electronic kit.

Likewise, I've waited 19 years to have a piano in the house - until we had an extension built last year, there just wasn't proper room for one. I got grade 8 as a teenager ( 2nd study) and use piano in lessons for aural, theory and accompanying, so seeing my new piano arrive on Wednesday was a dream come true. However, our neighbour has already complained in a pretty aggressive way.
Admittedly, we are in a semi-detached house and the piano is in a room that has her lounge on the other side, but it's not on the party wall - the back of the piano is against our staircase wall.

It's upsetting because we have always tried to be good neighbours, bending over backwards to keep her and her now deceased husband happy, even when their requests have been somewhat unreasonable. During the build last year, we constantly checked that she was ok, took flowers to apologise for the noise, had our builders do a couple of small jobs for her etc. She knows music is our livelihood and that the extension was to allow us to teach from home. Worst of all, she didn't actually come round to talk about any potential noise issue from the piano, but simply waited until DH was in the garden last night before shouting at him and then walking away, slamming the door behind her, less than 36 hours after the piano arrived.

catkind, not ideal I know but JD and school seem to see it doable. It's just one term and from January DS will have just one piano teacher (school's). Violin, on the other hand, is not allowed to have more than one teacher (for obvious reason). DS can take all group sessions like orchestras and ensembles but no 1-1 lessons at JD. Again it's just one term, and he will stop JD completely thereafter. He has to prioritise school commitments on Saturdays.

DS has GEWA for his full size violin. We are very happy with it.

Noo has a 3/4 'Tom and Will' one, which we are perfectly happy with. I guess it depends on the value of the instrument going in it... When she gets her full size violin I will probably go for GEWA at that point.

Hi all, can anyone possibly suggest a great (but reasonably priced) violin case for our full size violin and also where you got it from?
I have been googling all afternoon, but can't quite find 'the one'

Thank you

I don't know anything really about lutes, just played some lute music as a classical guitarist at school. An old family friend makes them, ( among other instruments) including the theorbo which is huge!

Does anybody know anything about Lutes?
I found some basic info but I'm not sure I was looking at the right type.
Something about different types for different time periods, I'm looking for Baroque.
You know what they say ..... If it's not Baroque..... sorry, couldn't resist.

Patrick, two piano teachers? That'll be an interesting dynamic, do you (or rather the teachers) have a plan how to coordinate it? Will he also be playing violin at JD so he can do ensembles?

Taggie, very impressed you could play concertos on your second instrument! My piano is more of the scraped grade 8 but not technically proficient enough to be musical school of thought mentioned upthread, luckily had a very tolerant piano teacher. Glad I learned though, it's fun to be able to do duets and accompaniments with the kids, and was v helpful for A-level.

Patrick - glad that the piano situation is sorted out for your DS, and that he is continuing seriously (albeit as a supporting study). I made the choice that violin would be my first instrument at your DS’s age or a little older. But I did continue with the piano fairly seriously - getting to the point of being able to perform the Schumann concerto as a teenager. I get huge satisfaction from playing the piano, even now I am quite rubbish .

The prodigy discussion is fascinating. I did hear a recital given by a true prodigy once: Chloe Hanslip, when she was in her early teens. Her playing has become more commanding as she has grown up. However, at the time I heard her, it had a wonderful freshness and courage, which is partly a product of youth. The finger gymnastics were remarkable, but her almost improvisary performance of a Mozart adagio has shaped how I think about classical slow movements. Adult musicians have much to learn from prodigies - as well as vice versa. Just my opinion anyhow...

Totally agree with the benefit of starting on percussion.

I assume managing teacher's expectation is easier with new teacher as you can make it very clear where they stand from the start. Plus, I kind of expect piano teachers must be used to be teaching as a supporting study?

I think it can be trickier with existent teacher though. We never discussed our priority with DS's first teachers (both violin and piano) simply because we didn't know the existence of ordering studies (we are non musical family) and DS was learning whatever as he pleased. I only encountered such question when I had to fill application form for JD which I had to ask them the meaning! DS started piano first and also it was a lot more formal than violin which he was learning at school, no exam, just messing around with friends, so I kind of thought piano would be a more 'proper' instrument for him. However JD replied to my question telling me to write down the one he liked most and wanted to study further and deeper as his 1st study. He always preferred violin so at that point violin became his 1st study.

DS played violin as his 1st and piano as his 2nd at the auditions and JD offered joint first study but we turned it down and even didn't apply for piano study there so DS carried on learning piano with his old and first piano teacher and started learning violin with the new teacher at JD. The new violin teacher asked us a couple of times which one was his first study. She seemed to want it clear if violin was his main or not. So the priority was super clear with her from the very beginning.

We ended up not discussing about priority at all with the piano teacher. We just didn't have a chance or right timing to discuss such things. I wasn't sure if it was supposed to inform 'officially' neither. But securing piano practice became a lot less important especially when DS was busy with many other things and there were times when I felt a bit awkward due to the uncertainty and the lack of understanding of the whole picture on the teacher's side. The teacher sensed though and seemed to understand and became more accommodating towards the end.

DS is starting with new piano teachers from September (one at JD and another at school - a long story!). They are both a lot higher ranked teachers than the old teacher (title-wise, don't know the quality yet!) but there won't be a problem with managing their expectation as they know DS is learning piano as a supporting study from the beginning.

Folk yes that's where we are too but I'm away now till September so I shall have to hunt for a teacher then !!

Trumpet we have exactly the same situation here - trial with new piano teacher next week and I'm going to have to really manage his expectations as we just can't put the time in what with violin, viola and secondary school.... she has such musicality and a lovely touch so it is very frustrating for her piano teacher to know she will never reach her potential on the instrument. I just need her to be competent!

Really interesting Floot . I think you just need ( with your teacher) to choose a path that suits you best at the time . I'm sure he will take his grade 8 next year , probably to make it a bit more straightforward to apply to advanced ensembles - but who knows he has a habit of surprising me.
For now though I have to find him a new piano teacher as his is now stopping to pursue further study which is amazing . She's still teaching dd which is great as she's lovely . He'll just have to motivate himself for a while whilst I sort it out !! Always a bit tricky though as he shows real promise on the piano - but for now at least it is very much his second instrument so that can be a bit frustrating for any teacher he has as I think they can see how much progress he could make really!! If he put the hours in

Trumpet, DS's teacher took grade 8 a year after she took grade 5. She says she wonders what the benefit was, looking back, because she then had to spend time making up various musical and technical aspects she'd skipped in doing so. ( She went to the Purcell School, then the RAM and is now a member of one of the BBC orchestras, so hardly unsuccessful!). She talks about someone she knows, also a cellist, who waited until 16 to take grade 8 and then followed a similar career path, getting a job in one of the London orchestras soon after leaving college - so taking it later did no harm and may we'll have been beneficial.
Many years ago, when it was much less common, I got grade 8 distinction at 12, after only learning for 3 years, taught by a peri flute teacher, and with completely non-musical parents. I started at JD the following term but a lot of the other students were working towards the higher grades, so there was a sense of treading water for me for a while.
I went on to take grade 8 piano at 19, having started lessons at 12, and actually got a higher mark than in flute, which might have been down to my greater musical knowledge and experience by then

No experience of guitars and theory but ds started drums 18 months before he started piano and his rhythm understanding was a massive help. Not really suprising but if he wasnt my youngest child id definitely start the next on percussion. He's the only one of my kids i havent har the 'the right note i the wrong place is the wrong note' discussion with

Very true Mistigri - the difference between DS1's interest in music theory now and his grudging resentment of g5 abrsm theory are very marked indeed!
I am so impressed with your DS's progress in piano, though - just amazing!

My kids both came to music via the guitar although DD had some prior experience of recorder and baroque music as a young child. So I have some experience of classical versus non classical educational routes, and I definitely would second what's been said about patterns.

What's interesting about starting on guitar is that it takes the mystique and the difficulty out of theory. Transposing is as simple as moving up or down a fret or several. Once you can play one scale you can play it in any key, it's just a pattern.

But interestingly, for my children and for my 15 yo DS in particular, that opens the door to learning stuff that often isn't broached until much later in classical music education. DS (who has one year of guitar and a few weeks of piano) knows a lot of theory - he knows the different types of scale, he is very knowledgeable about modes and chord progressions. And now he's started to play piano and can read bass and treble clef, he can look at a piece and analyse it in a way that I can't. I caught him yesterday transposing a Chopin nocturne and playing variations. He started piano in July and has had one lesson! The difference is a year of intensive guitar playing has taken the fear of music theory away.

Doubleup I know all too well what you mean about that road. We're heading down to Devon at the weekend.
The thing about recognising patterns really interests me. My dcs are definitely like this with guitar. They have started later with guitars but pick things up really fast because I think they see the chords and scales as patterns rather than notes. As a teacher it's fascinating for me to see how differently students learn and how much you have to adapt what you're doing.
DS1 raced through bass guitar grades (easy instrument!) on a lot of practice and a good memory but his new teacher says this is where he starts to learn how to really play! He's already gained a much deeper understanding of music and is enjoying being really challenged.
I hope DS2 gets to this stage with his cello. We have Y9 coming up and I suspect this year will be all gritted teeth and resistance!

Good luck with the journey up to Cumbria Trumpet. Hope the traffic is kind. 10 days still to go until we have to sit in traffic past Stonehenge on the way to Dorset. Last year we stopped in Salisbury on the way home from dropping DD2 off - may have to think hard about doing that this year.

Really interesting discussion - I have been reading whilst worrying about floor levels and new doors
Patrick I'm sure you've made the right decision re your mini - he's not got to where he is just through being good at lots of stuff and working hard and I very much doubt that someone who did ( and it would still be an amazing achievement) would even want to go to specialist school.
Plus Ds knows someone who did go to specialist school but left at the end of year 7 realising that it wasn't for him - so worry not you haven't mapped his whole life out for him you are giving him an opportunity
Floot that's also why I think ds's teacher is holding off on grade 8 he wants him to have that musical experience first.
We head up to the lakes today for NCO which starts tomorrow Ds is very excited and has just about recovered from his very intensive AYM week now !! He has absolutely loved the music that has been chosen for both courses this year - lots of really modern stuff and pieces with jazz and blues influences ( which I'm increasingly thinking is where his interest mostly lies. you can tell when he plays that he is just really enjoying himself which is what it's all about )

I don't know much of music prodigies so can't name one but for instance Bobby Fischer was a prodigy for me. He said he wasn't a chess genius like many people labelled him but just a genius who chose to play chess though. He didn't get any parental input other than being given a chess set as a random gift so you can say he was a rare thing Mistigri pointed.

I think grade 8 distinction at young age without much musical innate is quite reachable for smart/academic DCs. This is one reason why I am not very sure about DS's choice of making music as his main interest because his quick progress in music could be mainly due to his intelligence rather than innate musicality. He shows similarly quick progress in many other areas. He is good at recognising patterns and so on so it's not so difficult for him to reach advanced level if he puts enough effort. It'll be a disaster for him to go down the specialist route without enough natural musical abilities required to survive. But anyway I wrote enough of my worries in this matter so I won't start here again!

Anyway reaching grade 8 early could be indicating good musical ability or high intelligence but absolutely nothing to do with prodigy. As Floot's DS's teacher said, maturity is the key, I think. Many youngsters can reach incredibly advanced technicality if they are relatively talented/dedicated/good support at home and good teaching/intelligent, but their lack of life experience cannot be hid. The reason Perlman said he wasn't a prodigy but rather just a highly talented kid was because if you closed your eyes and listened to him you could tell it was a child playing - very advanced but too youthful. Perlman's definition of prodigy is someone who can play with incredible emotional understanding of grown ups = enough maturity so you can't tell if it's a child playing. I agree with his view (though I don't deny him a prodigy!).

He also said as a teacher he enjoys teaching highly talented and hard working DCs rather than prodigies. Prodigies need totally different support and teaching which he doesn't really enjoy nor cater. Great news for non-prodigies.

Hello everyone! We’ve had a solid 2 weeks camping with no internet which is why I’ve temporarily disappeared. I’ve concluded there’s too much to catch up on so am just going to jump in here and try my best to keep up - though we’ve another trip coming up so I’m not sure how well I’ll do.

I’ve got a relatively non-musical but very dance-y DS (19), who just picks up guitar/ any instrument that suits a band or song he wants to play whenever he feels like it, and then two very little ones (2 years 6 months old, and 6 months old) who don’t feature much on this thread.

Mainly I talk about my super sporty violinist and flautist (and occasional pianist) who’s 14, my dance/trampoline/netball mad cellist and clarinettist (and occasional pianist, bass guitarist, guitarist, ukulele group member, xylophonist, cajon drummer, drum kit basher and most recently accordionist... it’s not like she hasn’t got enough else to be getting on with) who’s 12 and my 6 year old, who’s mostly into gymnastics but has recently started a few violin lessons on a very tiny violin, plus learnt some ukulele and mandolin chords from her big sisters.

I can’t wait to read about what everyone else is up to! And Waffle, thanks as ever for hosting the thread. I really hope you’re doing well in spite of everything.

The prodigy discussion is a very interesting one, from a teaching point of view.
I have a flute pupil who is preparing for grade 8 piano. She recently got a distinction at grade 5 flute, so it would be fair to assume that she's a pretty competent musician. However, she actually has no understanding of the mechanics of music, so, for example, her sightreading is pretty poor and any expression she puts into a piece is learnt, rather than instinctive. In other words, she's reached a level of ability through practise but doesn't have any real natural, inate musicality.

DS's teacher says she meets lots of children that say they are grade 8 standard but they're actually not because they don't have the depth of knowledge to play at that level, only to pass the exam and the particular pieces they've studied for it.