August Music Thread

Love the support you get on here. Thanks all.

I think she has an offer she is happy with this evening!

for raspberry. I hope your DD has good support at school. Do encourage her to contact admissions tutors directly if there are courses she is interested in, and indeed to keep in touch with her first choice if she is still interested in going there. There is always some movement, with students changing their minds, deferring etc.

PM me if you'd like a chat (I am a university academic).

to your DD raspberry. This was our goddaughter’s position last year and she’s had a really beneficial year out, resat one of her subjects and today received an A* and a place at a university she’s properly happy with. Last year in clearing she got plenty of places at very good unis that she just wasn’t sure about and she’s so glad she took the year out. Hope you’re both okay.

And folk that sounds like a fab opportunity! Orchestra pits are one of DD’s favourite things about the professional productions she’s done.

Thanks druidsong

Unfortunately she didn't get the results she needed and at the moment Clearing isn't working out for her. Weighing up options ncluding resits at present!

Noo is 5 days into her intensive 'Oliver' production run - she is knackered so we are doing practice every other day. I am chaperoning and enjoying seeing it all come together even if a number of the children are Uber annoying and have managed to swing it for Noo to spend some time in the pit when the orchestra arrive next week. Of course, I will need to accompany her down there for 'safeguarding'..... not sure who is more excited!

Catkind - piano is probably a bit harder than some instruments but I think that for a teenage beginner the "difficulty gap" is smaller. The hard bit about starting piano when you are 6 or 7 is learning to read two lines of music at once and coordinating two hands doing different things. A teenage brain probably doesn't find that so hard to cope with. Both mine started piano at 14/15 (as a second instrument) and basically hopped straight onto grade 5/6/7 material. They obviously have some aptitude but I doubt there is anything special or unusual about them in this respect.

I think for piano starting at 15 is probably a bit late for a serious career, though it's true that you should never say never. When my DD started piano three years ago, her teacher had another teenage beginner of the same age (14). He had done a bit of organ but was new to piano. He did his "3rd cycle" exam (diploma equivalent) a year later, and he won a prize in an international competition earlier this year, so he is definitely "concert pianist" material! Very much the exception though I would think.

Obviously at 15 there is no risk of him becoming a professional pianist, that boat has sailed, but in other respects there doesn't seem to be any downside to starting later.
Never say never! We once played with a soloist just out of music college who'd taken up his instrument as a summer holiday project after GCSEs. Albeit not piano - is piano harder?

So as I wrote...

But I can see it works better than the random selection of aptitude test....

giving children opportunities based on mainly parental keenness doesn't really sound fairer than aptitude test....

I imagine the aim is not fairness but effective use of limited municipal resources. There is no point in teachers spending large amounts of time screening applicants individually only for them to drop out. You might just as well take them on a simpler first come first served basis if testing makes no difference to outcomes. They do still do auditions for non-beginners and older students.

Unless you fund the provision of instruments, practice time and lessons for all school students then access to music for young children always depends on parental keenness. It's less true of older beginners, but for obvious reasons they tend to play instruments that are cheap and easy to access (eg guitar) and learn contemporary styles which can be done without formal teaching.

My 15 year old DS showed absolutely no aptitude whatsoever for music as a young child - in fact he used to hate music, he hated noise in general. He got into (rock) music as a 13-14 year old and then taught himself guitar before showing an interest in classical piano this summer. Tbh if he puts his mind to it - and he may well do so as he tends to be quite obsessive - he'll be better than me in less than a year (I am a moderately competent pianist who can tackle grade 7-8 material without completely mangling it). Obviously at 15 there is no risk of him becoming a professional pianist, that boat has sailed, but in other respects there doesn't seem to be any downside to starting later.

However Patrick once he got stared I was then involved and supportive took him and his friends to Saturday music school etc ( though he asked to go ) . If at school they hadn't given instruments to all children but had asked parents to sign up then I would have said it's good idea . I think I always assumed they would both learn instruments ( and dd started piano younger) but because Ds didn't show a particular keenness or ask and I knew that the whole class lessons would be offered in Year 4 I thought that was a good place to start . Then I encouraged him to practise - a bit .
The experiences of those not allowed to take instruments home is awful and not positive at all . We were sent a note home telling us to encourage practise .
Whole class lessons are definitely not a perfect way to start but at least they are a start sadly now most children at his sisters school won't get to even see if it's for them . Also I don't think I would have chosen trumpet for Ds if he hadn't chosen it - being given one at school - that bit was fate

Good luck to your dd for Thursday rasberry

Our summer news - DS2 is doing some practicing. He had started with his new organ teacher ahead of going to summer school next week.

DDs life is on hold until Thursday and the dreaded A-level results.

But I can see it works better than the random selection of aptitude test as parental influence is great for younger age...

DS2 did clarinets in Y3 which wasn't a great experience. They had 31 in the class and 30 instruments. Luckily DS2 had his own and took that in. None of the others got to take their's out of school.

It definitely put a lot of kids off, plus patents who said their kids had 'tried an instrument' and it wasn't for them.

I remember a famous violinist/teacher claiming in an article what we would need is not a genius child but a genius parent to make a successful violinist. So French educators seem to agree with it.

I understand you can't include absolutely everyone so something such as aptitude test or parental keenness or whatever works best at a time have to be used to draw a line. But as a parent of a child whose musical interest came from himself (we were rather directing him towards sport until he was year 5 when his musical interest became obvious), and also as I know quite a few children on this thread who started music without much of parental input (such as Trumpetboy), giving children opportunities based on mainly parental keenness doesn't really sound fairer than aptitude test....

On the subject of aptitude tests, my DD studied piano at a French conservatoire where entry for the younger students used to be via aptitude testing. They dropped this last year as it wasn't a reliable way of spotting potential. They now take the youngest students on a first come first served basis, which effectively selects on the basis of parental keenness (which is probably quite well correlated with musical achievement as it happens).

Cornet ( some had trumpets ) dd's class had the same . I agree it didn't sound great !! Though they did get to bring them home which is how we discovered that Ds could really play

I think DS's whole class lessons would rather have put them off than encouraged anyone to learn an instrument trumpetboysmum! The racket of 30 beginner clarinets at once..and they didn't get to bring instrument home to realise it can sound better 1 at a time. What instrument did yours do? Obviously there will be exceptions but I'd imagine NCO must be skewed towards earlier starters, particularly at the younger ages?

Yes I don't know the merits of aptitude testing per se but it did push some kids into trying music lessons when it simply wouldn't have occurred to them or their families otherwise, which I thought might tend to work against stereotyped views of who should do well? And also just getting more kids started so there's a broader base to find the able ones.

Ds didn't start early - whole class lessons in year 4 . And they didn't test for music aptitude everyone had a go for a year and then those who's liked it chose to carry on . I think Ds is the only one who still plays now
I am worried about the lack of free lessons in schools though. Dd's school have now pulled out of the county music service lessons but without them many will never get an opportunity to play an instrument.
I have pointed this out to her school but I also understand the considerable financial pressures they are under .

I too would be wary of/reluctant to encourage aptitude tests for something like music - I think DD2 would show a lot of aptitude (perfect pitch, great sense of rhythm etc) for music but in reality she’s nothing too special musically because she simply isn’t that dedicated and doesn’t really have the drive to excel - she just wants to play about on lots of instruments for fun. Whereas I’m sure there are many who might not do as well on an “aptitude” test but would make much better use of extra music lessons and musical opportunities, and who will go a lot further in the world of music!

On another note, I'm just off to the Fringe festival to hear the Edinburgh Renaissance Band. Slightly niche , so going on my own, can't wait!

The apptitude tests are interesting though I, as I didn't pass at primary to do piano but have arguably done loads more with my music through enthusiasm and desire to learn ( can play many instruments badly!,) than the ones who 'pased', most of whom have no interest in playing anything now!

Yes I think to a large extent secondary school is a bigger pond and there will be enough people doing anything to find their own crowd. And by that time for our young starters their identity as a musician is already well established. I'd still be interested to know the relative levels of boys and girls taking up a first instrument at secondary age, suspect that may still be skewed in some schools. Role models matter a lot here.

For things like NCO though starting early is bound to be a question. What hobbies do they pester about or their parents say "do you fancy trying" when they're 6 or 7 or even younger. Which is where the over-gendered culture has an effect. If your child seems energetic and outdoorsy, you don't automatically think "flute lessons", but stereotypes are nudging boys to be more outdoorsy and girls to be more sitting concentrating. Obviously this doesn't apply on an individual level, but on average across the population.

Then again at a statistical level, boys genuinely are slightly less mature in terms of fine motor. Which does have some geared effects because if you try 3 or 4 hobbies you're more likely to stick with and persevere with the one you're better at.

Hopefully the cultural effects are going down though seems worse that when I was at school at the moment? I wonder what effect the reduction in free music service lessons also has an effect. We were tested for aptitude and there were free lessons for those who did well.