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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

OP posts:
NeverEverAnythingEver · 21/05/2018 16:22

At one point we had 4 extra violins in the house. Grin All of which we have returned.

NeverEverAnythingEver · 21/05/2018 16:21

You don't have to commit to anything. In your situation I would accept the loan of your friend's violin, then go shopping as planned. If you find anything you like, ask to trial them for a couple of weeks - take them back with you and show them to the teacher. If he disapprove you can always just take them back. How far are you from the violin shop? You don't need DS with you to buy or return the violin.

That was basically what we did. Someone lent us a full-sized while we shop at various places at most one hour drive/public transport away.

disorganisedmummy · 21/05/2018 15:14

Phew Kutik so glad you have a plan. I've been watching this thread constantly as we're about to go shopping for Ds's full size. I'm terrified after your experience. Please keep us posted.

Also,some advice if possible. I messaged ds's violin teacher who can be a bit of a diva/Control freak to say we are going up to violin dealers next week as it's half term and would he like to come and give us his opinion. He is away and has requested that we don't do anything at all until he comes back. Violin is going to be a birthday present for ds who turns 12 at the end of June. We will be part exchanging his current 3/4 so he won't have a violin to play. A friend of his has offered her Gliga Gama full size for him to try and use till his birthday. Teacher isn't sure about our choice of dealer (Woodbridge Violins in Suffolk) as he's had a few students come back to him with issues with their violins they have bought from Woodbridge. We don't have many free weekends between now and ds's birthday because of other things going on so we would prefer to go next week really.

Do we just go anyway and be guided by the Luthier or do we go "window shopping" but don't commit or wait till teacher can come but worried about his attitude towards dealer.

Help please 😩

Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 15:00

Trumpet Smile

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 15:00

I grabbed and drunk the glass in a second, Taggie! Thank you!

OP posts:
Trumpetboysmum · 21/05/2018 14:58

Glad you've got a plan to get it sorted Smile

TaggieOHara · 21/05/2018 14:49

kutik - you are amazing! Can’t wait to hear how all of this was sorted out (only if you want to share though...). Have an early Wine from me.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 13:55

Thanks for flowers and all the kind words. So glad I started this thread. Your kindness keeps me sane!!

Admittedly I was a bit (actually quite a lot) panicky last couple of days. Felt like being thrown into a black hole, not sure which way was up and down!

BUT I AM BACK. Yes, BOUNCED BACK!!! 100%. Um, may be 99%...

I'm afraid I can't write the details yet as I like to be very cautious (I don't know who is reading this thread!). But all I can tell you for now is I've gained my sanity back and know what I have to do and will handle this horrible situation alright. I will of course report back to you all once it's sorted. Smile

kxxx

OP posts:
cingolimama · 21/05/2018 12:57

Oh, Kutik you are incredible. Such patience and stamina! So sorry you're going through this stress - just when you thought it was done and dusted.

You've certainly done "due diligence" (and then some) on this particular violin. FWIW, if you don't return it, it's always going to be a worry. Essentially, now that you've had these many luthier's opinions, you will never feel secure with this instrument.

ealingwestmum · 21/05/2018 11:26

What a roller coaster you are on Kutik Flowers

GrannyHaddock · 21/05/2018 10:07

Some makers thin the front in the f-holes area to to lighten the appearance. About 1/8 inch, 3.2 mm is usual for a violin front, though if the wood was very dense it could be thinner. Did the man measure all over the front? I can't imagine any gadget that could do that, or was it electronic?
And yes, clara the value of a violin is measured more by the maker's name and reputation than the sound it makes, which as we know is completely subjective. It is hard to know buying a new instrument especially by a young maker, to judge how it will develop, whether it is worth the price and if you will break even, lose or gain. New makers come into favour and some fade away. When I was a young player, Instruments by the Capela brothers were highly regarded, but they are not sought after now.
Revarnishing is a minefield. Even if a maker's varnish is faulty, by replacing it the violin's authenticity is lost.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 08:05

Yes the thickness of the panel is not all the same but Luthier 6 didn't check it properly like using an equipment but just gave it a glance. All he could see was the thickness at the f hole like me. So I was a bit... Hmm

I agree with the dealer's point of views often being different from the player's point of views. I will see if his Cremona sounds as good or even better than DS's.

Our choices are to return or to have it re-varnished. I need to know pros and cons of the process. Ruining otherwise lovely sound violin is the last thing I would like to do.

OP posts:
claraschu · 21/05/2018 06:07

The thickness of the panel will vary in different places on the front, and differences will be very subtle (I am guessing differences of .01 to .1 of a mm), so often not really visible.

I am sorry you are having this worry now. I already gave my 2 cents worth months ago, so won't add anything more, but you really have my sympathy: it is hard to buy an instrument, whatever the level you are looking for. Could you still return the violin at this point?

In case you decide to stick with this violin, I will just add that the instruments which dealers tend to approve of often don't sound the best. The instrument I owned which dealers loved the most was early 20th century Italian, and as boring as hell to play (would be worth a lot of money now if I had kept it).

Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 04:41

I was supposed to go to the basketball play-off final at O2 with DS yesterday (I used to play basketball), but I gave DH the ticket and let the boys go so that I could see Luthier 6. He wanted to show me his violins. DS has a performance this week and an exam any time in a couple of weeks time so we cannot be violinless after returning the Irish one...

Luthier 6 explained the bad practice of contemporary luthiers that they tend to make the front panel very thin to make the sound nice under the ear, but it won't really project in a big hall, especially after playing for a while, say 20-30 mins, the sound will start getting small so not great for an hour or more performance for instance. Also, those thin panelled violins may sound nice and bright, but actually quite thin and empty in sound, so it doesn't really produce lots of colours and depth when violinists want to express more.

He hasn't played DS's violin nor heard DS playing it so he is not saying DS's violin is one of the productions of the bad practice. He was just telling me some of tendencies of modern violins. I heard of this kind of comment before so it seems common belief for some though I don't know how true it is.

He checked DS's violin. He said he could see some inexperienced technique (which we knew - it was one of the luthier's earlier productions) but it was well made and he liked the f hole shapes and nothing wrong with the wood too. But he strongly disagreed with the varnish. It'll look awful in a year time. He also said the panels were too thin.

He then showed me two Cremona violins. Both are fairly new so no antique but one of them came from a family of seven generations of woodcavers and another was made by a former head of a violin making school in Cremona. He thinks they have as good, if not better, sound as DS's violin. And more importantly (for him) the value won't go down when we decide to sell.

Interestingly, the thickness of the front panel of both violins seems no difference from DS's violin.... I can compare the thickness through the f hole only as I don't have any special equipment. But both are around 2 mm. I'm very confused...

I could see Luthier 6's point of the selling value for financial safety though. Basically, no matter how lovely the sound is, DS's violin may struggle to find a buyer when we want to sell as it will look awful due to the fragile and chippy varnish, and also no one would really be interested in an 'Irish make'. So if all have nice sound it's no brainer to go for Cremona violins, that's he is saying.

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 03:05

BettertoChange
Are you talking about the luthier at DS's jd? Does your DC go to the same jd as DS?

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/05/2018 02:59

Thank you all for your kind words.

Taggie
When I asked the potential damage of re-varnishing, the dealer said it's quite common practice for modern violins so no need to worry too much. I need to research on this because I don't want to do anything drastic that may affect the sound...

Re, reassurance, that was the word from Luthier 5. He is a very respectable guy who is probably known by all in the business, at least in London. I decided not to take a risk so returned the violin but DS never forgot about the violin, so when Luthier 5 said it was a good maker, I felt I got the reassurance I so wanted for the violin and jumped in. I am going to see Luthier 3 and 5 just because the teacher suggested. But you are right. I'll see one more luthier who O haven't dealt with in the past.

OP posts:
GrannyHaddock · 20/05/2018 20:58

Kutik, there is no "typical Irish violin", as far as I know. I am sure there are Irish makers but not enough to form a distinctive recognisable "school".It sounds like boloney to me. I wonder what on earth luthier 2 was on about. Whoever compared buying a violin to buying a used car was not so far off the truth, though, which is why buying a violin or other instrument at auction is so risky unless you are a dealer or repairer. You have little redress if problems appear later on.

se22mother · 20/05/2018 19:53

Kutik Thanks that sounds so stressful

BettertoChange · 20/05/2018 18:40

A Luthier runs a shop at JD basement to help repair or set up violin. Might be worth to ask the gentleman the opinion.

Trumpetboysmum · 20/05/2018 18:35

Oh Kutik I can't offer any words of wisdom as I know nothing about violins . I hope you get it sorted one way or the other soon - it sounds very stressful Flowers

GrannyHaddock · 20/05/2018 18:28

Mending, The Chinese are making some marvellous instruments now: they really know what they are doing at all price levels. They can make and send half-way round the world a very respectable violin for way less than cost of the materials needed for a violin in the UK, let alone the work and include a case and a reasonable bow. Astonishing!

TaggieOHara · 20/05/2018 18:21

I do take the point about second hand cars etc, but I must say, that whilst some luthiers over the years have been a bit sniffy about my violin (which is nothing special), and have criticised the various repairs I have had done, I have never had such extreme comments.

I think going to someone who has not dealt with you before might be a good idea, as you have made a very substantial investment, and you need reassurance.

TaggieOHara · 20/05/2018 18:16

kutik - I’m so sorry. That sounds so stressful. I would be very cautious about re-varnishing because varnish affects the sound and the process may strain the violin. But I am no expert and I really do think you need expert and unbiased advice.

Jonathan Beecher in Oxford has an excellent reputation and is an expert on setting up and repairing older and newer instruments. He is experienced at working with talented young players. I wonder if he could help, even over the phone in the first instance.

How is your DS taking this news?

NeverEverAnythingEver · 20/05/2018 17:27

That does sound a bit traumatic kutik. For one of the violins that DS really liked we had opposing views from two violinists. I think I would go with your teacher's statement about secondhand cars...

Mendingfences · 20/05/2018 16:11

Oh kutik that sounds so confusing. No words of wisdom from me im afraid. Apart from her teacher, who helped choose it, no one Else has evaluated dd1s violin. It was bought from a good luthier and dd1 is happy. Im sure people could pick faults with it, not least because it's chinese but as får as im concerned it's working out great for dd1. Part of the reason she chose it over others is it is very adaptable and works accross the genres from classical to folk rock. I know you invester a huge amount of time and energy in your violin search so this must be very traumatic for you.