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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

OP posts:
stringmealong · 31/05/2018 10:13

Also, a good rule of thumb is that you will need to spend 4 times as much to get the same quality wood as carbon fibre - so if your bow budget is £500 Carbon fibre is by far the better option! I have a wooden bow made by a top London maker which has definitely lost some of it's spring (1980's) & is outplayed by my carbon fibre bow which was bought for less. Also the environmental impact of pernambuco (& in some cases ivory) have led to difficulties travelling abroad with wooden bows (very stringent rules on them not being allowed in many countries), so if you ever want to travel with your instrument a carbon fibre bow is essential!

stringmealong · 31/05/2018 10:02

What is the 3/4 size bow? That might help

Original poster
Kutik73 · 31/05/2018 07:47

ColourOfRain, now you made me think if DS wasn't particularly keen on some bows he tried because he was judging it based on the bow he got used to. There was an Old German bow (early 20th), relatively reasonable, but the luthier was praising a lot more than the one which cost twice of it and new. But DS didn't like it (he said 'alright'). But it seems he should try some for a while to see if any of them 'works'. But how can tell they are 'good'? Follow the luthiers/bow makers suggestion then show the teacher? Then select from there?

OP posts:
ColoursOfRain · 30/05/2018 23:58

Plays, not lays.

ColoursOfRain · 30/05/2018 23:58

Also - just had a thought - better doesn't necessarily mean easier. It's very tempting to go for a bow that lays like your old one - because you are used to controlling that. A better bow might need some time to learn how to play with it.

It's a minefield. I hate to say it, but I found bow shopping much harder!

Just a point, though. My bow doesn't cost a third of my instrument. I couldn't afford that yet. It's one step away, though. It does me just fine and actually, I've learnt a lot from this bow that will help me when I buy the next one.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 23:26

Thanks, ColourOfRain. I think we will make a trip to a shop or maybe order some from Elida once all the exam and performances are done in June. Hopefully we can get a decent but a probably-to-be-a-spare-in-future bow before we send the violin back to the maker for re-varnishing. Then we can finally say good bye to the 3/4 bow!

OP posts:
ColoursOfRain · 30/05/2018 23:08

Bows are personal, but some are definitely better than others. I would get hold of a few and let him take them to a lesson - to see how he plays with them etc.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 23:04

So it's kind of left to us to decide. Of course we could ask her approval but she said bows were very personal so she wouldn't say 'no' unless it's very obviously a bad choice.

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 23:00

I checked the website and was tempted to order the one with a veneer but hesitated. I've been constantly told DS would need a decent bow so I was just wondering if DS is at a right stage for the bow and if so how long it would last till we have to start a serious bow hunt. The teacher said it would be good for DS to have a decent wooden bow for learning point of views. But she would never really tell us 'what we should do'.

OP posts:
stringmealong · 30/05/2018 22:28

In which case I'd stick to under £150 Carbon then - Elida trading have a fantastic range & will post them. My personal favourite is the one with a veneer (sounds weird but I've yet to find a student not fall in love with it). £90 I think. Once they can control that they'll be ready for a very nice Coda or Musing bow & they'll still have a decent spare!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 21:49

I don't think we'll spend more than £1000 (more likely around £500?) for a bow at this stage unless DS has a very strong preference which I doubt he will.

OP posts:
claraschu · 30/05/2018 18:12

I think pernambuco bows do last well. People are talking about spending 1/3 of the value of the violin on a bow, so up to a couple of thousand, which could buy a decent older bow, though I bet a newish bow would be better.

I didn't want people to think that it is as simple as old bows don't last.

GrannyHaddock · 30/05/2018 16:28

Well, no, I don't mean cheap bows. The 19th century bows you mention sell for tens, scores, of thousands and are unlikely to be of interest to the readers of this discussion! There were plenty of fine bows made last century that are more affordable and and will give good service. I do have a newish bow which is quite sturdy, but well suited to my purposes. I haven't tried enough new wooden bows to form a general opinion.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 16:08

That means if we buy a good new bow it will last at least for 100 years?

OP posts:
claraschu · 30/05/2018 15:42

That is interesting GrannyHaddock. I assume you are talking about fairly cheap bows, because of course the best bows tend to be mid 19th century, and certainly have retained (or increased) both their quality and their value.
Don't you think brand new bows tend to be a bit stiff?

GrannyHaddock · 30/05/2018 14:05

You are likely to be safe buying a wooden bow up to a hundred years old if it is in good condition. I expect a very strong player could wear out a delicate bow, by using too much pressure and ruining the springiness. There is not the same scope to repair bows as there is violins, where essentially every part is replaceable.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/05/2018 04:59

se22, I am so glad all is already sorted for your DD! It's really good that she knows what she wants. I think the journey for finding an ideal bow can be even more tedious than violin for many. We haven't started the search yet but DS had a chance to try out a few bows while we were looking for a violin and he found two bows 'alright' and didn't particularly like the rest.... Am I the only one who is feeling a omen for what will be happening with our bow search...?

cellointheboot, thanks for the amazing post. Seriously useful and helpful! The idea of getting a transitional bow certainly eases off some pressure. I am shocked to know wooden bows get weaker with age... So going back to my previous question, it would be better to buy a new bow than an old/antique bow then? How long 'a good bow' is supposed to last? Hope it has a good life if anyone end up spending 1/3 or more of the cost of the violin!!

Granny and NeverEver
If I am honest, I like to get another carbon bow, simply because it would reduce my worry about accidents. DS is not particularly careful although he wouldn't use it for sword fighting. But all the people around us tell me we should get a wooden bow for DS's benefit. Does it really make a difference for the learning point of views? I like the price of carbon bows too. Grin

OP posts:
NeverEverAnythingEver · 29/05/2018 19:06

DS said he couldn't tell the difference between a £800 bow, a £5000 bow and a £200 carbon fibre bow. We went for the £200 cf bow. Grin

GrannyHaddock · 29/05/2018 16:16

The carbon bows I have seen are intended to be the same weight as the equivalent wooden bow. A light bow will require more effort to play sustained passages, so will not necessarily be less work overall. The challenge is to find a bow that does everything reasonably well. A decent carbon bow is likely to be perfectly adequate for many students.

cellointheboot · 29/05/2018 13:24

1/3rd of the value of the violin at least! But all depends on what stage of bowing you are at. A player who can play at least 1/2 the Mazas studies, some spiccato, martele, soon to be starting richochet will need a good bow but jumping from a £50 bow to a £1000 bow would be too big a jump, they just wouldn't know what to do with it & would be better with a £100 or so bow to get used to the better balance for a while before moving up. A good £100 bow should be relatively heavy & well balanced to teach how to draw a sound without effort before moving on to a better more professional bow. When I was looking 10-15 years ago, I would have had to spend £1000 on a wooden bow to match the abilities (spiccato, richochet etc) of the £400 carbon fibre bow I tried, so I ended up with the carbon fibre bow. That bow is now worth £900 so I am presuming I would need to spend £1500 on a pernambuco bow to match it at least! There are probably even better carbon fibre bows around than mine now, but mine is plenty good enough for life as a semi pro player/teacher & the Codobow top end models are very popular amongst my colleagues too. Carbon fibre trade off is that the sound is a little harsher than wood but that is a price I am willing to pay. If you're going straight in for £1000+ bows try lots before buying. My best guess is that most under 18's wouldn't know what to do with a bow that good though, so a £100 bow shopping should be relatively quick & painless- just go to a luthier & tell them you want a transitional bow- one that is relatively heavy & will teach the child how to draw the sound. They will all have a particular model to solve this & you probably won't even need to try it before you buy it!
Hope that helps x One other thing... wooden bows to get weaker with age. Brazilwood will generally only last a few years so a waste of money in my opinion, but even good pernambuco decrease in spring with age so if you go for wood make sure it's a really strong stick & try nothing without a good rosin like Melos!

se22mother · 29/05/2018 11:48

Dd spent a happy hour trying bows and violins on Friday. She had a very clear preference of bow, and we have it and the violin she liked on Friday on approval. We were advised to spend 1/3 of the cost of the violin on the bow.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 29/05/2018 11:04

In general old or new which one is better? For instance, there are pros and cons for old and new violins. Is bows the same?

OP posts:
ColoursOfRain · 29/05/2018 10:46

I don't know about carbon fibre.

Brazilwood is generic and cheaper, usually poorer quality bows.

Pernambuco is the best, but has serious issues regarding sustainability. The options here are to buy older, or source carefully. Some bow makers used pernambuco salvaged from telegraph poles/ fences etc

Original poster
Kutik73 · 29/05/2018 10:41

That's an interesting question disorganised. I am also very much interested to hear opinions/advice. I'm afraid I don't know anything about bow yet.

The reason why we got cf bow for DS's 3/4 was because it's robust. He is a boy's boy so getting a delicate bow wasn't a wise move. Grin He tried a few but liked the cf bow most also (he also liked it's black...). I didn't know it's lighter but he had just turned 9 at the time so perhaps he felt the lightness easier to handle.

Good luck with your shopping!!

OP posts:
disorganisedmummy · 29/05/2018 10:01

Morning all, were going violin shopping this week and will also be buying a new bow. Could I ask you all for some advice about the different types of bow eg Pernambuco, Brazilwood and Carbon fibre. Obviously Carbon fibre is the lightest but don't know about which is lighter out of the other two. Ds currently has a CF bow as he prefers light bows. He has co ordination issues as per his Aspergers. He predominantly plays in orchestra and either leads the seconds or in County Orchestra is in middle of firsts if that makes any difference. He does struggle to apply the correct pressure when playing which then affects the sound so not sure whether heavier bow is better??
I look forward to your suggestions 😊