4/4 Violin hunting

DS's 1/2 cello cost under £300 to buy, but almost the same again to set up decently - new nut, bridge, strings, fingerboard adjustment etc, all done by Cardiff Violins. The difference in the sound quality afterwards was amazing, and we've just been given £300 for it part ex, so totally worthwhile.
The full size cello we've bought from the same shop has had adjustments made to make it more lively at the top, but may still need tweaking.
DS tried lots of Chinese cellos at £2/3k and liked them...but once we knew he had grown enough for a full size, we decided to look for something he could keep long-term, plus his teacher didn't like the Chinese ones as much as the Bohemian we eventually decided on.
It's hard to know how a new instrument will 'play in', and there seems to be quite a variation between even instruments of the same make and model.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood. Is your lovely violin modern or old? I have a Chinese handmade bow too, love it
And ulp, I'm about 25 years overdue a new violin bridge then Perhaps I can fall back in love with existing violin and save a fortune. Thanks again, you're a star.

Mine isn't actually Chinese but I know plenty of people with them - I'm not suggesting factory made stentors or the like here but proper handmade by expert makers! I also have a Chinese bow who's history is that the top French bow makers went out to China & trained loads of people in the craft. It's a great bow & a fraction of the cost of a French bow!
Bridges die off after a couple of years, I aim to get a new bridge & soundpost every 2 years on my instruments. The difference is astonishing!

Fantastic insights stringmealong, thank you for taking the time to post. I don't know about kutik but I will definitely be adding the idea of trying out a Chinese made violin to my violin hunting plans. Also asking someone if actually re-setting up my existing instrument would be worth a try. I'm not sure if it used to sound better, or if my expectations have gone up. Even playing with amateurs, there are a lot of very naice instruments hanging around in the commuter belt!

I seem to know a good few people playing modern Chinese violas but hardly any playing modern violins. I remember totally struggling with the setup issue last time I was instrument hunting.

May I ask how long you've had your Chinese violin? One thing that put me off was some people saying they're making the wood too thin so it sounds great now but may not in 10 years' time. At least I think that's what was said. But I guess that's why it's better to buy via a recommended expert.

Kutik Would it be too outing to ask you which luthiers you tried?

We are also 4/4 violin hunting. We have a 3/4 from Stringers and we will go and look at Stringers for the 4/4 but will keep our options open.

What I forgot to say is that a large dealer has many instruments that it will take him a long time to sell, so in my mind they are poor quality instruments. Somebody that specialises in trying out different brands of instruments from China & sending back any he doesn't like surely has a more personal approach & will only have a few instruments hanging in his studio because he knows where to find the best ones?

Hi, I'm a pro player & teacher & it's taken me forever to find the right violin & I have lost a great deal of money trying so thought I'd share my experience. My £800 & £1200 violins I own are worth nothing anymore because the Chinese new market are so incredibly strong they are simply better in most cases upto around £2000 mark now! When I was in London, I used to travel to Hamilton Caswell in Bristol but I have since discovered never to use a dealer but a luthier who specialises in set up. I now use Simon Watkin in Coates (Cambridgeshire) & what a discovery it has been! I also own a viola worth around £5k & dh has a cello worth £3k both have been worked on by Simon & are considerably better for the experience. Many dealers will try to sell you violins worth many thousands on the presumption they will sound better & will stock instruments upto 4 or 5 k with very poor set ups to prove that the more expensive instruments are better. But in my experience you would have to go way over £50k to find anything significantly better than a well set up 2-3k instrument. I am more than a little smug when I sit in professional orchestras & my violin or viola outplays instruments worth £20k or more! (These are the words of others in these orchestras not my own!)
A good luthier will offer you a service & an honest opinion of your instrument & will tell you if it is good enough to cope with his deluxe set up (top quality bridge, soundpost & Evah Gold Strings) or not. Simon recently sold me a new violin for under £2k & it is quite honestly the best violin I've ever played on! It will take time & trust. He doesn't generally loan instruments out on approval & will generally order an instrument in from China for you. Set up will take a couple of hours of listening to you play & making incredibly fine adjustments to the bridge with his file but you can literally hear the instrument improving as he goes.
As for auction, I bought my viola on a whim at auction & it ended up being worth considerably more than I paid for it. (Dealers mark up by 2/3rds of what they pay), but I've also bought other instruments that have been worth less than I paid so I wouldn't suggest using them unless you have far more experience than me!
Simon's deluxe set up costs around £250 for bridge, soundpost & Evah Gold Strings. If you buy a 2-3k violin from him & need to upgrade again in a few years time what have you got to lose? He guarantees giving you back whatever you paid for it if you upgrade!
My bigger concern with your ds is your lack of concern for the bow he plays with. I highly recommend upgrading the bow ASAP as a good bow teaches you a good technique. In my teaching I find a poor quality bow encourages poor technique & there are some very good quality carbon fibre ones around at good prices now. I would use a large dealer to find a bow he likes (Caswell or Cambridgestrings) & would probably spend £1k each on a good Chinese violin & a carbon bow (my favourite brand in codabow but there are others that are almost as good, just avoid arcus they are a waste of money).
Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Sorry, but your teacher is talking out of their backside. You can buy it wherever you like! I bought my double bass in Edinburgh but lived in NW England. We went into the shop there on spec at the end of our holiday as DH fancied his own viola. I was bored so went to look at the basses and DH eventually joined me. They had 3 basses and i kept coming back to the cheapest one as the tone was fab but it had been set up completely incorrectly with a double tail wire and the bridge was too close to the fingerboard. I bought it; they wrapped it in plastic bags (I had a case already) and I re-packed it into the car in the middle of a busy Edinburgh street.

A good friend is a luthier so he set it up properly for me, removing one tail wire, re-positioning the bridge and sanding it down a little. That was 25 years ago. It has been a fantastic instrument and I frequently receive comments about what a lovely instrument it is, what a nice sound etc etc. It cost me less than £900, although is now insured for considerably more.

DD2 played a number of violins when trading up to a full-size one. Her absolute favourite is a rather lovely 16th century Italian violin of serious repute owned by her teacher, but as I don't have millions stashed away, she as to make do with the one we bought and playing her teacher's when teacher is in the mood. I do have her nice 3/4 size that I would love to sell on though.... PM me for info....

∆ I agree. You need to be satisfied that you have seen a wide range of instruments within your budget, which means travelling potentially. The fact you have a luthier you trust to be able to set up and maintain the violin you choose is a huge plus point, no matter where you end up buying, but I wouldn't let it restrict you to only instruments they have.
You have nothing to lose by coming to Cardiff - at worst, you'll decide you like an instrument you've already tried ( and enjoy a nice day out!), at best, you may find the violin of your/mini's dreams.
Lots of instrumental shops use courier services, so don't worry about that.

Kutik, what does the teacher mean "too far for a violin"? Of course you must go with someone you trust - I totally get that. But does this luthier have a shop, or just a workshop?

One thing to consider is that you want to be able to try a range of instruments, which you will get at a shop like Cariff - not necessarily via a single luthier.

Please don't worry about the couriers - I was worried too, but they pack it in these special boxes and they are insured and Cardiff ships all over the world, so really there's no risk to you. It's easy to return the violin via courier.

If you're concerned about adjustments, repairs etc, then you would want to find a good luthier/workshop that is local to you. I go to Bridgewood and Nietzert for stuff like that - in fact they fitted a new chin rest for my daughter on the Cardiff Violins. It might be nice if you buy something via your local luthier, such as a case, strings etc so they get something out of it. But a violin is a massive investment and of course very important to your DC and location shouldn't really matter.

We might see you in Cardiff Violins, Kutik - meeting DS's teacher there to try out some bows.
Definitely visit the castle, if you get time, and Barker's coffee house which is underneath the string shop at the beginning of the arcade - quirky but fab.
Fingers crossed you find an amazing instrument!

No Kutik you're not crazy. I'm thinking of going to bloody Munich to see Corillon Violins!

Btw, since you're in London, have you considered taking the train? It's fast and direct and you could easily do a day trip (and take in the Castle too).

Good luck and please let us know how you get on!

That's a good point about handing down family, it's lovely if you can.

I don't think the looking after violin relationship has to be with the same person as the buying violin relationship. The repair person I go to doesn't sell instruments at all, but came highly recommended for repairs. (Hark at me sounding like I know what I'm talking about - I don't actually take my instruments in nearly as much as I ought to.) When I bought my viola I took it to repair person to get an unbiased opinion first.

Have fun testing in the recital hall! It will be a really good comparison to have teacher play them all to him/you too. Teacher's own violin could be a good "this is what a good violin sounds like" benchmark.

Cingolimama, we've been dealing with Cecile at Cardiff Violins for DS's new cello - she's great and we've ended up with a beautiful instrument. I would also recommend Bristol Violins, Cremona House (also in Bristol) and there's somewhere decent in Oxford too.

I'm in a similar position, based in London and looking for full-size violin for DD. First thing I'd say is take your time - this is a big decision.

I'd also suggest going to specialist shops outside of London, which often give better value because of lower overheads. I've dealt with Cardiff Violins for DD's fabulous 3/4 violin - and it was all done via phone calls and emails. I will visit Cardiff, though, for her 4/4. Might be worth a call - talk to Cecile, who's extremely helpful.

You want to establish a good relationship with a luthier/specialist string shop for the next few years. If you don't feel you're getting good advice or you don't trust them, go somewhere else.

Good luck, OP. Please update us!

Hmm, we still have DD's first but it's only a 1/10 and not worth a lot. Don't think I would keep 1/2 plus, too expensive and if it's a decent instrument it should be out there being played. OTOH DD's current violin is on loan from a friend who did keep her DCs' castoffs. So clearly some people do! If you wanted to keep for now and sell later, perhaps you could lend it out for a period to get it played back in?