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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

OP posts:
Floottoot · 27/02/2018 08:19

No snow in Cardiff, Kutik, more's the pity!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 27/02/2018 01:32

cingolimama, thank you for wishing me good luck!

HerOutdoors, I appreciate your kind advice. It's so nice to hear from luthires, teachers and pro-musicians. You are not the first person who told me about Peter Hall. Unfortunately it's just too far away... But I am sure someone near him who is lurking and following this thread is diligently taking note.

Stringmealong, I asked a luthier if he could play for DS so that DS could listen to the sound away from his ear. He said he couldn't play and advised me to ask DS's teacher to play for us...

Today's luthier used to be a pro-violinist. I asked him his opinion on a luthier who can't play. His answer was, playing ability is not necessary to be a good luthier... Obviously he could have sold himself as a luthier who could play like a pro (well, he was a pro). Confused. Or there is no right and wrong??

DH wants us to cancel tomorrow's trip due to snow...

OP posts:
Stringmealong · 26/02/2018 19:12

Yes - don't forget to get the luthier to play all the violins your ds tries as well & stand well back to hear which ones project best. I'm lucky because I rehearse occasionally with my luthier in a lovely old church. It's amazing how much you learn about an instrument by hearing it played by somebody else from the opposite end of a large building! 😁

Her0utdoors · 26/02/2018 10:26

I'm a luthier ( sadly no stock for sale at the moment Wink). In answer to the query about luthiers who don't play, I don't think there are any who wouldn't be able to pick up a violin and play it well enough to assess it tonally, or listen to it being played and be able to offer the appropriate adjustments to help it's player get the most from it. I don't consider myself a player although I have grade 5 and studied other instruments at post grad level. Observing luthiers who play to an extremely high level, I know that can help with a sale because they can make an average violin sound exceptional to most ears. I definitely recommend a trip to Peter Hall in Beverley for those who are searching, he is very knowledgeable and experienced.

cingolimama · 26/02/2018 08:22

Appreciate the update. Yes, it's incredible how your sense of what's appropriate to spend creeps up and up until you find yourself thinking "quite reasonable really, at £4000!".

Please keep us in the loop. And best of luck.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/02/2018 22:23

We went to see a new luthier today. He runs a tiny workshop at his home. Couldn't find much about him on the internet so it was a bit of gamble.

DS tried three European antiques at first. He played from the lowest note to highest note on each string, tested how easy to play harmonic and spiccato and other techniques I don't know the name of, checked the response by playing a couple of fast passages, slow and long bow with vibrato, double-stops and so on. He then explained to the luthier things he liked and disliked about each violin. DS certainly becomes a bit of an expert...

The luthier had some Chinese workshop made violins which were at around £1.5k. But he said DS wouldn't like them and put them away. DS wanted to try and begged him to bring them back! They were fine, but DS didn't like them as the luthier said.

In the end DS picked a violin made by the luthier himself. Because it was made when he was younger it was not as expensive as his current violins. However, it is still quite a push for us. We've got to leave money for a bow, and also other small things like a shoulder rest and a case... Anyway it's in our living room at the moment. Not sure if DS still likes it tomorrow morning!

Tomorrow, we are going back to a luthier we have already saw (and returned his violin as we didn't like it!). He told me the violins he would like to show us are at around £4k, so not too expensive. Gosh, I can't believe I said that. My sense of money has totally gone out of the window after seeing so many quality violins in the last couple of weeks!

I am totally utterly happy with a violin of £1k or so though. I may have to change the whole approach and re-start things all again.

Cardiff is on Tuesday!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/02/2018 18:22

What do you think of a luthier who doesn't play the violin?

Our piano tuner doesn't play the piano but we have no problem with his service. But it's not that he 'makes' the piano, just tuning by using a little gadget.

Now, how important for a luthier to be able to play the violin in order to be a really good, trustworthy luthier? How come they can make one or adjust things to find desirable sound if they can't play at all?

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/02/2018 18:16

Floot Grin

By the way, has the teacher approved of your DS's choice after all?

OP posts:
Floottoot · 25/02/2018 17:59

Kutik, ditto! By the end of our original visit to Cardiff Violins, DS was on the floor! It was SO intense, particularly as he felt he preferred instruments his teacher didn't - VERY stressful.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/02/2018 17:55

Floot, thank you for your suggestion. I actually looked up the violin shop in Bristol after I read your earlier post. I thought of trying to make two visits but in the end decided to stick to just one. We are travelling by train so timing is a bit restricted.

Also choosing instruments can be quite exhausting, for younger ones especially. You need to be alerted for several hours. DS will lose his focus after one shop - I know this from experience!

One shop a day is a golden rule for this particular child. Wink

OP posts:
Floottoot · 25/02/2018 09:01

Kutik, is there anyway you can come to Cardiff via Bristol? I definitely think a trip to Bristol Violins would be worthwhile - Nick there was the person that suggested we halve our budget and look at everything from that price upwards. He also recommends matching the bow to the instrument, Harry Potter wand style! A really knowledgeable and honest guy, and absolutely no pressure to buy - we had a cello on loan for over 2 weeks.

Floottoot · 25/02/2018 08:57

DS's beginner 1/2 cello was more than £200 and while he passed the first couple of grades on it with fantastic marks, when we took it to be looked at by a specialist shop, they were amazed that bed been able to play it at all. We spent almost as much again having it set up properly and it was worth every penny.
There is a false economy in cheap instruments for young students. They make playing so much harder, which can affect technique and can discourage students.
We've invested in a good instrument because it is just that - an investment. It will only ever go up in value. It will take DS through to music college level at least, at which point he can keep it as a spare, or if he decides to study something else, he can keep it for a hobby or we will sell it. In the meantime, he gets to learn on an instrument he loves playing and which rewards his efforts - even in the few weeks he's had it, the sound has opened up enormously.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/02/2018 02:05

stickssss, thank you for sharing your wisdom and the information of your luthier. I checked the website, very much interested, would love to visit. I suppose Yorkshire is a bit too far I'm afraid. But I'll keep his details just in case! I think somebody who is following this thread is also benefiting from knowing about Perter Hall. That's the whole purpose of sharing information publicly. Smile

My biggest mistake was telling luthiers our budget upfront. I'm seeing two already-seen luthiers next week. They called me to come again as apparently they have good violins in stock. Unfortunately our budget is already embedded in their head, so they won't call us for anything under £3k.

OP posts:
Onlynever · 25/02/2018 00:49

Bought her a mid range bow and decent rosin.
Personally I wouldn't spend thousands unless she was heading for music college. And from what I was told what suits a younger child may well not suit them and their taste when they mature, so best not to buy an expensive violin early.

stickssss · 25/02/2018 00:05

Sorry, auto correct and typo fails...
My violin is a 1963 Leo Aschauer.

stickssss · 25/02/2018 00:00

When I was 17 my parents paid £800 for my violin (this included a case and bow!). It's a 1973 Leo Asheur from Mittenwald.

I loaned 3 violins from the man I purchased this from and was aesthetically drawn more to the 2 more expensive violins I eventually rejected as they looked more like what I thought I wanted. However, based on tone, I kept going back to the slightly orange looking one, which needed work on the varnish. 18 years later, I still love my fiddle which has mellowed and become more beautiful with age. It's seen me through a music degree, I play regularly in a string quatert, ceilidh band, and a very good local orchestra. My violin has been valued recently at around 4.5-5k.

When my violin was in for repair, my local luthier loaned a violin in his shop which he was selling on behalf of the maker. This violin was on sale at 6.5k. I honestly have never found an instrument such hard work to play. It was heavy and clumbersome, and I struggled to produce a decent tone even though I'm a pretty good player.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, don't try violins purely based on price. Try a variety from different price brackets and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Like previous posters have said, a good bridge, strings that suit the instrument, and a good bow, are so important in producing a good sound.

I can recommend Peter Hall in Beverley, though appreciate this will be a fair distance for you to travel. Peter gives sound, impartial advice, and won't try to sell something to you if it isn't right for you.

www.peterhallviolins.com

Good luck and enjoy your shopping expeditions!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 24/02/2018 23:54

Yes, catkind, I am on the mission of finding a violin that DS falls head over heels in love with. Grin We are a very much ordinary family with modest income. It's a big investment for us. But we are prepared to give DS a gift. For some it may be ridiculous (he is only 10!) but for us it's worth it... DS would sleep with violin if he was allowed. He loves violin.

Well, he may find his dream violin much less than our maximum budget. Then the rest will be put back to the saving account for future upgrade!

OP posts:
catkind · 24/02/2018 23:22

I don't know about grades but if you're investing in music to the extent of junior college etc, and can afford it, it makes sense to me to invest in an instrument too. It makes it easier and more rewarding to learn, and they will get better opportunities with a better sound. And if they have that degree of enthusiasm it's probably at very least a hobby for life.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 24/02/2018 22:37

If DS manages to find a violin under 1k I'm sure we will jump in to grab it! Haven't met one yet.

I assume she has a good bow? How long did it take her to find a bow? It took nearly a year for DS's teacher once! I don't think I can wait that long...

All the luthiers asked me our budget so I was very open about it. But I stopped telling them now. Instead I describe what sort of violins we are after. Hopefully this will widen the choices in a positive way!

OP posts:
Onlynever · 24/02/2018 22:12

Yes, full size. We saw it advertised on EBay, went to try it out. Dd very happy with it. Has recently passed grade 8 on it and plays in good ensembles

When we were considering buying from a strings shop, we were recommended violins at around £800 to £1000. Would then upgrade if went to diploma level/conservatoire, and keep the cheaper violin as a spare.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 24/02/2018 22:00

onlynever, is it full size? And your DD is happy with it (tones, playability, etc)? If yes, then you are very lucky to have found one for the price! Unfortunately it doesn't happen very often I suppose. But I may be wrong.

DS is practically grade zero as he's done no exam on the violin (though he does exams for his second study). We know roughly where he is but his development is not measured by grade syllabus.

OP posts:
Onlynever · 24/02/2018 20:50

Why are some of you spending several thousand pounds? Are your children playing at, or expecting to reach, a very high level?
DD paid around £200 for a decent second hand instrument. It is fine at grade 8 level.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 24/02/2018 20:37

Stringmealong, thank you for sharing your wisdom. A luthier actually said the same thing as you about the price of the quality violin professionals own that they are not necessarily £10k+.

I agree with you about bow. DS had been using a carbon fibre bow which was less than £100 but was good enough for his 3/4 violin. Unfortunately it became unplayable recently so he is using a crappy spare at the moment. We are going to buy a quality bow for 4/4 and has enough budget spared for it. The teacher suggested we should shop one by one, so for now we are focusing on violin. But we will look for a bow probably at around Easter (hopefully we will have a violin by then).

NeverEver, have you checked JP Guilvier? They are as reputable as Stringer I think. I haven't been to Stringer, only because the teacher didn't seem to be very keen. But I think we should pop in as so many people praise the shop! A question is when, as DS's back to school now and as he attends JD on Saturdays he can't make a visit unless I take him out of school...

By the way, you may be interested in watching this.

OP posts:
Floottoot · 24/02/2018 10:42

I know they won't get worse, but if you are buying in the hope they may improve in a particular way, you may be disappointed.
As I said, we've just bought an antique cello for DS, after trying everything in our price range, slightly above and slightly under, in 2 specialist shops. Its provenance is sketchy, so we have little idea how much it has been played recently, but it is coming to life more and more as DS plays it AND we loved it when he first tried it.
DH and I are both professional musicians, and DS's teacher plays in one of the BBC orchestras, so we feel happy we've made the right choice. Now to buy a bow...!

Stringmealong · 23/02/2018 19:20

Floortoot I'm not talking about factory Chinese, I'm talking handmade there is a massive difference! I agree that there is a risk involved when buying any new instrument but the risk is whether or not it will improve. There is no chance of it getting worse!