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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

OP posts:
DressAndGo · 02/03/2018 00:37

The bow is the magical part Smile

Original poster
Kutik73 · 02/03/2018 00:14

Paul, thanks for the suggestion. It's quite far away but I may need it! I am hoping our journey is finally coming to the end. But you never know. DS has already changed his favourite three times! We may have to start all over again and start planning to visit new places...

DressAndGo, we are going to start looking for a bow at Easter. I expect many visits to shops again, so we have to wait DS becomes free from school. He is still using the crappy 3/4 bow which is a pain...

OP posts:
DressAndGo · 01/03/2018 23:58

I would put it on your insurance temporarily.

Regarding cost. Don't forget to factor in the cost for a good bow. The bow makes all the difference.

My old one cost £285, my current one £1500.

Paulweller11 · 01/03/2018 23:31

I would highly recommend Bridge violins Sleaford, Lincs.
They can source violins and they also make violins- very very nice ones too!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/03/2018 22:49

We haven't shown her yet. It'll be this Saturday.

DS has two concerts on the day, one in the afternoon and another in the evening, at a different venue. He has lessons at jd also before and after the concerts. Lots of backwards and forwards between three venues will be happening, and we have to carry three violins with us (as we need to show them to the teacher at jd).

One of them is not insured. Great...

OP posts:
DressAndGo · 01/03/2018 22:36

What does his teacher say?

Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/03/2018 21:16

These days we are so busy visiting luthiers and testing loaned violins, no much actual practice is happening I'm afraid. He's got a piano exam next week. Haven't heard scales nor pieces for a while...

We did a quick sound test today. He still liked the Cardiff one most. Apparently the violin makes him feel like he is part of the sound. He loves the tone very much - hopefully it's not the case of what claras pointed - a very sweet sound under the ear but not much variety...

We have three lovely violins. Seriously they are all great. We are spoilt.

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/03/2018 02:44

Cardiff was great. We planned to do some sight-seeing but ended up spending our entire time in Cardiff at the shop. They were very helpful. They let DS try many violins, let him play in different rooms (small and large), let him listen to his chosen violins played by their staff, and they didn't kick us out nor didn't show us any sign of annoyance even though we stayed there so long (we were the last customer to leave on the day)!

DS picked a handmade new violin which we have to return early next week if we decide not to purchase.

We are showing the teacher three violins including the one from Cardiff this weekend. They are all lovely, and relatively new (1952 - 2015) and all are 100% cash-back for trade. They are £5.5k - £6k but two of them will go down quite a bit as they are happy to take DS's old 3/4 and basically they are more willing to sell for several reasons, which makes the Cardiff one the most expensive.

DS seems to like the Cardiff violin most at the moment, but £6k feels a bit too much to be honest. DS loves music and loves violin, but we don't see it as his possible career. He is too young to know that, and also he is interested in many other areas. We have had the money put aside for his 4/4 violin, but we are not wealthy at all. So, more than £5k doesn't feel right. We've got to buy a bow too!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/03/2018 01:29

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on how much to spend, cingo, claras and Claris. I agree, DS's taste would change, and £1k - £3k would perfectly satisfy DS's needs.

I should have thought of our top mark more carefully. But hey-ho, I let DS try up to £6k everywhere, and some luthiers even let him try £10k ranges (without my knowledge). DS didn't always choose the most expensive ones though he didn't choose the cheaper end neither. We can re-start all again with a new top mark (£3k?). But when I asked advice on the starting price, almost all luthiers agreed we should look at £3k up. I may have to search out totally different venues for a fresh start...

Currently he's narrowed it down to three violins which are £5.5k to £6k, and his most favourite is £6k.

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/03/2018 01:02

ILovePandas, thank you for the suggestion. Yes, I have heard of the shop being very very good. Somehow I couldn't remember the name when we started hunting so kind of missed it out. It's roughly the same journey as Cardiff by train and car, so yes, it will be on my list and will consider a visit if needed.

OP posts:
ILovePandas · 28/02/2018 19:58

Would recommend trying Woodbridge Violins in Suffolk. Fantastic choice and knowledge.

Clarissalarissa · 28/02/2018 16:35

I was told that we could get something decent under £1K - to go up to grade 8 level. However, as you have money and your son is serious about violin, I would look at paying up to £3K. Then upgrade if he ever plays violin really seriously, and keep it as a spare. By which I mean, he can play it if a string breaks, or similar.

claraschu · 28/02/2018 09:14

I agree with cingolimama that the violin you buy now will probably be outgrown in a few years if your son stays serious about music and wants to be a violinist. It is possible that you will find a £6,000 instrument with the complexity, richness and scope that will keep a student happy through conservatoire, but it is pretty unlikely.

I think that any violin that is in good shape, healthy and resonant, fairly even and not hard to play will be good for now. Our children all had good sounding, not-brand-new instruments worth £1-3,000 to start with.

It is a good sign that the shops are offering cash back for trade, but remember that next time your son wants a violin, it will probably be in a different shop, maybe in a different country, so really the best thing is to have an independent knowledgeable dealer tell you he thinks you are getting a sensible deal. His next instrument could easily also be borrowed or haggled over or got through word of mouth.

Of course your son should be thrilled with his new violin, and he does sound like he is very thoughtful, but make sure to pay attention to the opinion of more experienced people. It is very very easy to fall in love with a particular quality of an instrument which is not actually the best choice in the long(er) run (perhaps one with a very sweet sound under the ear but not much variety, or one that is similar to the one you already play but louder). Also, your son might try a Strad right now and not like or sound good on it.

The other thing you might already have noticed is that most shops have very flattering acoustics, which make it really hard to tell how an instrument really sounds.

cingolimama · 28/02/2018 08:19

Kutik, I really sympathise with your dilemma. It's really difficult to know what is the right amount to spend.

One piece of advice that took a bit of pressure off me was this: your child's first full-size violin is NOT going to be their "forever" violin. They will be very different musicians at 15/16. They will know much more clearly what kind of sound they want, what kind of music they want to play and what kind of violinist they want to be. So perhaps look to get an excellent violin (within a budget) with a lovely tone that fits your DC for the next, say, three years. And then upgrade when they are more mature musicians.

I have to say £6000 seems a bit high at this point, but if you can afford it and it will retain its value there's nothing wrong with spending that much. Many young musicians on junior conservatoire track borrow instruments from the Benslow Trust (routinely worth about £15,000 and the couple that I've heard are nothing special - go figure!).

Anything of interest in Cardiff?

Original poster
Kutik73 · 28/02/2018 01:50

However, quite many committed young musicians seem to have very good instruments. I was thinking how brave their parents were!

I was also wondering how common to have the second instrument as a spare or school use. DS's teacher doesn't like this idea. She likes DS to practise on the same violin. However, we can borrow a nice violin (valued £2k - £3k) for £40 per term. Perhaps, we borrow one for school use?

DS can leave it at school always (so no chance of losing during the journey) and just collect it at the end of each term...? His main instrument can be used for home practice, JD or other musically more important occasions???

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 28/02/2018 01:34

DressAndGo, taking it with him is another big worry, yes. I think I'll be all grey pretty quickly...

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 28/02/2018 01:30

I know how much is too much is very subjective. £1k can be a lot but can be very little. The level of commitment and seriousness would also be the key whether it's worth spending THAT much. However, while I can say he is quite keen, I don't know if he is keen enough or serious enough!

He is a member of the National Children's Orchestra and an invitation-only local youth orchestra, attends a London JD, will be a music scholar at senior school from this coming September. Does it sound 'serious enough'? While I am asking this, I know it's again very much subjective, and only we will know the answer.

I think I've started thinking too much. But I guess it's not a bad thing. After all, it's a lot of money! I just need to let myself confused a little while...

OP posts:
DressAndGo · 28/02/2018 01:17

Ps pay what you want to. Just don't be in a position where you're stressing about its safety if he lets others have a go on it etc..

DressAndGo · 28/02/2018 01:16

Just remember he'll be taking it with him. Will you be relaxed if it gets knocked/ left at rehearsal?

My first full size cost £250 ( don't underestimate the wonders a good luthier can do setting up a basic instrument)

My college/ university instrument cost £900 - this one taught me what I wanted in an instrument

My 'proper' one - post uni cost £6500. This will last for me to pass on to my children. I could have paid more, but don't want to. I could have paid less for the tone, but it came down to comfort - this one fitted me perfectly.

I bought the bow after.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 28/02/2018 01:02

DressAndGo and Clarissalarissa, thanks for your advice.

We don't get any information of each violin prior to testing the sound. We don't know the maker, origin, new or old, nor price, until DS makes his choice. So it's been strictly purely based on tone and playability.

But currently two of DS's favourite are both £6k.... We were prepared to pay that much when we started the hunting. However, I am not so sure now.

Yes, we like to buy what DS loves most (within our budget), and yes, we like to buy a decent violin. Both violins offer 100% cash-back for trade so when we want to upgrade/change, there is no fear of losing money. But still, how much is too much or too little? How much is decent enough? A 10 years old really needs such an expensive violin just because he loves it and is a keen violinist and that we can afford it?

'Forget about the price', 'get a decent instrument', 'don't spend a lot of money'... I totally agree, but I am struggling to see the fine line between them...

HerOutdoors, I don't think none of luthiers we met was Albanian. I supposed all of them were English. But I didn't ask them their nationality so I don't know!

OP posts:
Her0utdoors · 27/02/2018 11:35

He wasn't Albanian was he OP? ( please ignore my question if I'm being indiscrete!)

Clarissalarissa · 27/02/2018 10:56

Yes, which is why I think it makes sense to get a decent instrument for the first full size one, if the child is really serious about it and you can afford it, but not to spend a lot of money. A child's taste in violins is likely to change in between age 12 and age 18, for instance. And selling violins on is not necessarily that easy, and you are likely to lose money on it. Also, 12 year olds are not well known for looking after their belongings. Likely to leave it on public transport, tread on it, etc.

DressAndGo · 27/02/2018 09:41

Honestly? I would say you'll learn loads with this experience. In a year or so, with what you've learnt now and in the years after the experience, you might want to put some of it into practice.

By this, I mean that don't think the expensive instrument you buy now will be the 'forever' instrument. He'll be growing and changing, don't be in a position where you don't feel you can trade in again. It's not a bad thing to change your mind later. Some people get the instrumentthey love immediately, some take a while to find 'the one'.

DressAndGo · 27/02/2018 08:32

Get the violin first, then get the bow. You need to find the now that plays well with the instrument.

Forget about price. It's all about tone and playability.

Honestly? I would say you'll learn loads with this experience. In a year or so, with what you've learnt now and in the years after the experience, you might want to put some of it into practice.

A good violin is always tradable. Once you've played better, you'll know more what you want.

Don't get anything that you don't feel you can trade in again.

It's good to go somewhere with lots to compare.

Due to materials - wood and quality of wood and fixtures and fittings, prices can vary.

Floottoot · 27/02/2018 08:27

Forgot to answer you question, Kutik - let's just say that DS came round to his teacher's and our choice of cello, after a blindfolded listening test of all the instruments in the running ( his initial favourite was relegated to last place!) It emerged that his original favourite was his favourite because it was the easiest to play immediately ( don't forget, he has gone straight from a 1/2 to a full size, so a big change). Once he heard what the other instrument could sound like, he picked it and now, after a few weeks' practice on it be fined playing it absolutely fine.