4/4 Violin hunting

Is it possible (in the gentlest way) that you might be overthinking it at this age. Perhaps your 10-year-old senses that he isn't quite ready to have responsibility for the choice. A healthy sounding, relatively inexpensive, Chinese instrument or an old German factory instrument for a couple of thousand might take a bit of pressure off, and give him something to work with for a few years at least, until he has gained maturity.

I think in order to get a lovely handmade brand new instrument for £6,000 you would have to be incredibly lucky and stumble on a fantastic unknown youngish maker, who just happened to be really good. Established modern makers tend to charge quite a bit more than that, don't they? I could EASILY be wrong about this, but I would guess that you are more likely to find a serendipitously lovely older instrument of unknown provenance (often German factory made). My own feeling is that brand new instruments don't often have the complex and subtle sweet, rich, deep sound which is intriguing right under the ear to a young player. Again, this is just my personal feeling, and obviously may have NO relevance to your son.
What pieces is your son playing at the moment?

Dd1s full size violin (her first) is a new chinese one, around the 3k mark price wise. She trialed several (all picked out from luthiers by her teacher) and this one was the one that felt right. It's nearest rival was a scandinavian instrument which she loved for fiddling but was less keen on for classical.

She's had it 8 months or so now and she's very pleased.

I really like this thread, it’s like a really gently paced, somewhat abstract reality show. Anyway, it’s gripped me and the only satisfactory conclusion is an intimate recital with the lucky final instrument in a secret location to which we’re all invited .

In a contribution to discussion, we tried a two cello situation once and dd found it most disagreeable. Couldn’t get on with swapping between cellos at all for serious practise. Happy to mess about on a blooming 1/8th till the cows come home though!

Hi Kutik, it's been really interesting to read about your son's quest for a violin! We have just been through this process with our DS, 12, also a music scholar and grade 0. ;-) Violin is his second instrument so he is definitely not as advanced as your DS. We decided not to look for the forever-violin yet, because he would be taking it to school on his bike all the time. Like you, we first thought about buying two instruments, a really good one and a cheap one to keep at school, but the school doesn't allow kids to leave their instruments there apparently so that wasn't an option.
So then we decided for something in-between for the next few years. When I started thinking about this, I realised that when I was a teenager, most of my friends who were very good violin players (several went on to conservatoires) actually had their first really good violin when they were about 14/15 and played on cheaper instruments before that.
I took my son to one violin shop only (Bridgewood&Neitzert), mainly because that's where we bought his 3/4 size and had been very happy with their service. It took us around a month, trying and taking home several violins between £300-£1k and we chose a beautiful Chinese one in the end which was £900. I play a £6k modern violin myself (well, valued at £6k, not sure I would ever be able to sell it for that much) and actually prefer to play on my son's violin now because its 'playability' is so much better! To be fair, I probably need a new bridge on my violin but I can't remember that it ever played so easily (it does sound better though, phew).
I know that this Chinese violin is not going to hold its value like an antique instrument would, but it does give me peace of mind that DS is not cycling around with a very expensive instrument and yet is very happy with the instrument he now has and can actually use it all the time.
I also have a little bit of experience with Stringers in London, but only with cheaper instrument outfits, which seem to vary in quality but I have one pupil with a beautiful 4/4 student violin from them. Another pupil brought her violin there once with a broken string and they replaced it at no cost, they also replaced her bow at some point. However I once brought my own violin there for a new soundpost and wasn't happy with the outcome.
I'm glad our hunt is over for the time being, good luck with yours, I'm sure your son will find a beautiful instrument in the end!

Kutik, your experiences of violin hunting are going to be invaluable to anyone doing the same. In fact,I'm taking notes so that when we start hunting-prob after Easter I will know what to be looking for. I'm a bit scared/overwhelmed to be honest as we were just planning on going to one place- Woodbridge Violins. I'm not sure mini-disorganised could cope with going to umpteen different places. We've been told by his violin teacher that we should be looking a violin that will take him right through to Music college. Music is all he wants to do so we are willing to spend between £3-5K plus bow 😱

I inherited a violin. I took it to a Luthier for a bit of a sort out and assessment. It turned out the violin was worth 2.5 k and the bow 3k !

Hi claraschu, Thank you very much! It's a new violin. I changed the tailpiece recently with fine tuner myself as DS can't tune with the pegs properly now. I have bough a set of dominant strings and want to test if it is the string problem. It seems that I need to visit a luthier to set it up. DS is not up to that standard to use an expensive one yet. The 3/4 is the one borrowed from friend three years ago. It is also a new one which I believe less than 10 years old.

"We know the maker, year, country for the £3.5k, £5.5k, and £6k, but no information available for the 4k... The luthier thinks it was probably made 1910, and by the shape and varnish he believes it is east German, possibly Dresden. But it doesn't have any label inside so it's all just a (but knowledgeable) guess and I do worry if it'll cause a headache when we want to sell it for upgrading."

That sounds like my violin - which I've now had for over 30 years. No maker's label, probably German from various features of the design (elaborate scroll), probably early 20th century! The great thing about no maker's label is that it does knock quite a bit off the price, so you get a better sounding instrument for the money.

Re. bows, I spent years and years with a crap bow (was a student, then short of cash when I first started work). I finally got a decent-paying job and splashed my first pay cheque. About a quarter of the price of the violin (so not far off your rule of thumb) and it really does make an enormous difference.

Hi I'm not a violinist but I work in the arts and culture sector and there is a violin shop in Blackpool - I live near to there and work in Blackpool. I have been told it is a hidden gem. www.violinshop.co.uk

Hi Better if the violin has been sitting around for 5 years, it is almost sure to need a bit of work- new strings, an adjustment to the bridge and sound post, perhaps some glue, and quite a bit of playing. Often, just playing on an instrument for a week or so will make it sound much better...

Sometimes a new instrument can sound startling and brash next to a beloved old instrument, but I would guess that the harmonic sound means that the sound post is out of whack, so the instrument isn't speaking well.

If I were you, I would take the instrument to a violin shop and ask them to have a look at it. If they recommend new strings, you should be aware that sometimes violin shops charge list price, but you can often get a significant discount for the same strings if you buy them on line.

Is the instrument brand new? or is it an older instrument?

Bought DS a full size violin five years ago on a trip. When DS tried it recently, he was not happy about the loud sound comparing with his 3/4 violin. And also the A string produced harmonic sound if just bow weight applied. Can I ask claraschu is it the instrument problem or setup problem? The violin cost me around £800 that time and I haven't planned to buy DS a more expensive one yet.

string - how does your dd feel about keeping a lesser model at school? My dd grumbles that following a couple of issues with a "friend" playing pranks on dd's good instrument she has to take an old stentor to school groups.

Kutik - I'm still following this incredibly interesting story :)

Kutik thezadventure sounds wonderful! Dd is currently trialling new cellos.....we have decided to keep her old one st School permanently. Much much easier esp as she takes the bus alone many days plus her teacher advised it as too many chances for knocked instruments at school (her friends Cello was pretty much destroyed by a silly joke by someone at another school recently). . It has def made life easier and dd moves between two cellos fine.

That is wonderful, and your son sounds like such a lovely boy. I bet he is learning an enormous amount from this experience. Maybe a 10-year-old has insight and clarity which gets fogged up after decades of searching.

My feeling is that the best way to figure out what you think of an instrument, after you have been playing on it for a week or so, is to play about 3 instruments (preferably one of which you know well) in a largish, not-too-resonant room you know very well, with one or two other people you know well (and aren't trying to impress) who can also play. Then take the instruments to a hall, again just with a trusted teacher or friend, and see how they sound in a larger space. Then see how the instrument sounds in a quartet.

I guess most 10-year-olds wouldn't have the chance to do all of this, and wouldn't really know what to make of it if they did. Usually a child who is lucky enough to get a decent first full size violin, just tries to buy a healthy sounding instrument which takes his fancy and is a reasonable deal from a reputable seller.

You are turning your search into something more than this, having a real adventure, meeting lots of inspiring new people, finding out about an amazing art. Your son sounds like a real star, with a genuine passion for the violin. How lovely-

You can do a certain amount with adjusting the sound post, but instruments usually have a tendency of one sort or another (thinner sound on E string, not enough richness in bass, etc). With fine old instruments, people mess around endlessly with sound post/ bridge, different strings, etc- you can drive yourself crazy. There is a certain amount of placebo effect, and also often instruments sound more resonant for a few days after any adjustment...
It is definitely worth having an adjustment, but be aware that it is a complex process, and might be a bit hard for a 10 year old to know what he thinks, especially on an unfamiliar instrument in an unfamiliar space.