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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

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ealingwestmum · 01/04/2018 15:40

I am SO late to your thread Kutik, but reading it with interest!

Nothing to add other than we have benefitted greatly from a Berlin factory made violin (circa 1900's) bought by....yep, going to throw in another luthier in for you here - William John (Brentford), if you haven't already seen him/dismissed him off your prospect list.

Bill maintains it yearly, was not a bust the bank purchase (£800) but great for DD's level when bought at 10, with the view that it would see her through to HE if she were to take violin further, and at any time he would buy back at full purchase price. She's not about to let it go any day soon as she loves it. Then bought a lovely bow to compliment it...

Good luck with your search!

Musicdoc · 01/04/2018 07:43

Kutik We live in Lincoln but visit London quite a lot... Phelps is just a 10 minute journey from where we stay in London, but we also know Andrew Sutherland and will probably use him if any work needs doing on the violin. I hadn't thought about the importance of having a particular luthier - having met a few it is hard to make an informed choice as they all seem to think their own work is the best and I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to luthier-type stuff!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 31/03/2018 23:18

losing my stamina and dedication!

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 31/03/2018 23:16

Niggle and Musicdoc, nice to see you here. Thanks for dropping your words. I'm so glad you have found a violin for your DDs.

Musicdoc, you seemed to travel quite far (from Lincoln to London). Do you have easy access to Phelps? Or are you going to use a local luthier when any maintenance is needed? I have a few interesting contacts (including Andrew Sutherland now!) but am hesitating to make a visit as they are all far and further. Wondering if I should just stay with the local luthiers who I know already as a way of narrowing down my search. Otherwise it's getting too overwhelming.

DS is happy to visit new places no matter how far they are and carry on our search. On the other hand, I am my losing stamina and dedication...

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Musicdoc · 31/03/2018 22:18

Kutik I've just caught up on this thread - wow, your stamina and dedication is truly amazing!!
I've been searching for my DDs 4/4 violin too... we tried a few from John Gosling (Newark) and then Andrew Sutherland (Lincoln) but couldn't find anything within our budget (less then £2k) but yesterday went to Phelps in London and found one that my daughter has fallen in love with.... just waiting for approval from her teacher! I play violin too (post-Grade8) but have been impressed at how my DD (age 10 and working towards G8) has immediately known what she likes / not likes along the way. What has been harder for us is that she has a gorgeous 3/4 violin that is hard to match, and we have struggled to part exchange it because no-one seems interested in expensive 3/4 violins.
Hope you get to the end of your journey soon!

Nigglenotes · 31/03/2018 19:32

Kutik, DD also now has an Andrew Sutherland violin, 3/4. It has a lovely sound, better than her last violin. Her teacher in Grantham uses him so we went with that. I don't have your stamina!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 31/03/2018 15:54

MidLifeCrisis007, what's a great story! Thanks so much for sharing!

I think your DH did a brilliant job. By judging what I saw and learnt, German c1910 factory made in good playable condition without any obvious damage sound very reliable and a great choice for the value. You could have easily paid £2k -3k if you have bought it from a shop.

I had a meeting with Amati the other day. They did advised me to start looking auction violins. However I am too coward to try that yet! A luthier kindly looks for a violin for DS and I trust him how he prices (he never ever charges too much). So I'll leave him to do that for me for now... Is your DD a pianist? Ground piano hunting sounds so exciting (but frightening too)!

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 31/03/2018 15:40

Floot, it's not out of the picture totally. In fact we talk about their violin quite a lot (theirs was DS's favourite really). We keep in regular contact with the Cardiff people. I am glad you told me about them. They understand what we are looking for and are very keen to help us find 'the one'. They are also helping me build good relationship with violin makers. We may visit again or they may send us a couple of selected violins in a few weeks time.

I don't think you were too quick to decide, Floot. Sometimes you know. We were like that for DS's 1/2 and 3/4. Why are you thinking to travel further than Cardiff? They seem to have lots of selections.

Zoolatry, glad you got a bow that matches to his violin. I have no idea about bow. We were supposed to be hunting a bow during the holiday according to my initial plan. But life never goes as planned!

BettertoChange, great news that the violin starts opening up. I am intrigued to hear your quest of mastering sound post adjustments! Which strings are you using? Do you use all the same maker?

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MidLifeCrisis007 · 31/03/2018 15:34

I'm enjoying this thread and only wish I had a child with such passion, patience and ability!

I'm interested in the references made to German factory made instruments. We were recently in the market for a 4/4 cello for our DD - DH heard of an auction nearby and told me he was going to go and look at cellos for her. His only expertise in string instruments was getting to grade 3 violin as a child (and failing!!!...). Anyway he was lucky to talk to a restorer there who helped point out some quality cellos which required no work. Inevitably, come the auction all the named ones he had shortlisted went above our budget. There was just one more instrument he'd shortlisted which was unnamed and a total gamble. We got it for just under a thousand pounds including commission. It is a beautiful instrument and turns out it's factory made, German, c1910. We were very lucky, but our experience now is that auction instruments typically sell for around 40-50% of what retailers charge, so the auction rooms are the places to be hunting if you want a bargain! We are now after a grand piano......

BettertoChange · 31/03/2018 15:08

DS's new violin sounds lot better after three weeks' play. The sound post setter ordered hasn't arrived yet. We plan to move sound post further away to see what happens. DS played Vivaldi's Winter in school concert with the new violin and the metal sound of E string sounds startling.

Zoolatry · 31/03/2018 14:09

Hi Kutik

We bought the bow separately. It’s a codabow Diamond SX, which fits the bill for DS - good but not terrifying when at school!

Good luck with the continued hunt and keep us posted.
Z

Floottoot · 31/03/2018 10:30

I've slightly lost track, Kutik - is the Cardiff one now out of the picture totally?
The offer from the JD seems like a good way of relieving some of the pressure.
I wonder if we were too quick to decide on DS's cello but he does love it, as do we and his teacher, so maybe we were just lucky to find 'the one' quickly?
We still need to choose a bow but think we may travel further than Cardiff Violins for that.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/03/2018 23:20

Oh I forgot to update...

I am not sure how many of you are actually being able to follow me without any difficulty. It must be very confusing which one is which. Anyhow, hopefully you remember I returned the £6k English handmade violin the other day.

His usual rate is beyond our reach really. So £6k was already a generous offer. It's well made, and the teacher seemed to be happy with it (in fact she bought her DD's violin from him years ago). Still too expensive, but we knew it was a good deal for the violin. But we returned.

However, he rang me out of blue and told me he thought DS was very natural holding his violin and really believed it would suit him perfectly and DS would benefit from playing his violin. And offered us a charming price. Still expensive, but charming enough for the quality. He then said, no pressure, just think about it, talk to the teacher again.

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 30/03/2018 23:03

Hello Zoolatry, thank you for your lovely note. I love hearing other's success story of finding 'the one' (even if it's for now Smile). It helps me keep going and dreaming.

I am sure someone else named Andres Sutherland before. I do remember I checked his website. He sounds very passionate about violin making. Did you buy a bow from him too?

DS is enjoying boys' holiday with his dad this weekend. We'll start visiting luthiers once he's back. The second round of our grand tour (of violin shops) is about to start. Grin

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Zoolatry · 30/03/2018 22:32

Thoroughly enjoying this thread, thank you.

DS (14) has a ‘new’ (2008, iirc) violin from Andrew Sutherland (Steep Hill Strings, Lincoln) and it’s beautiful in every respect. Andrew was SO helpful. Searching was a long process, but worth it when you find ‘the one’, even if it’s ‘only’ the one for now (ish).

claraschu · 29/03/2018 11:16

Insurance is not expensive. We use Lark, and they are good, I think, though my husband is the one who actually deals with them.

CruCru · 29/03/2018 11:10

This is a really good thread (a bit thrilling and terrifying).

Out of nosiness, is it very expensive to insure the sort of instruments that you're looking at? My children are much younger (I have a son aged 6 and a daughter aged 4) and I can't imagine my son being in charge of an expensive instrument but that may change.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 28/03/2018 19:17

Just a quick update.

Collected a violin from jd today. They kindly popped a bow also in the violin case, so DS can leave his terrible bow for now and use this nicer one instead. The violin is a Klotz School. Very narrow and light. Has nice sound.

Currently DS likes the old French. However the teacher was not sure. She told me some concerns so I spoke to the luthier if he could sort out the problems. He said 'most likely!'. So we are taking the violin back to him next week. Fingers crossed.

Meanwhile DS is actually still thinking of the one with the thin panel. The luthier confirmed there is nothing problem with the panel. They are actually very very nice, trying to build a good lasting relationship with us. They are willing to show us some other violins they think DS would like (as now they know DS's taste). We are very much interested in their proposals. It may depend on the timing though. If the problems with the French violin is sorted before we see their violins we may just go for the French one.

I felt we were stuck without a solution a while ago but start to feel we are moving forward, very very slowly, but at least moving somewhere.

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 27/03/2018 11:18

That's very brave, BettertoChange! Please let us know how he gets on with it. I am at the so-proud-of-myself-for-replacing-a-string level so adjusting a sound post is a way beyond my comfort zone!

I am returning the English handmade violin today. DS didn't change his mind so we can't keep it any longer.

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BettertoChange · 27/03/2018 10:27

I bought a soundpost setter. Next step is try to adjust the new 4/4 violin sound post and see if I can get a good sound for my DS. I took the violin to JD, the tutor said the G D A strings sound good. E string sounds weird. Few weeks no violin lessons during Easter and it's good time for DS to learn how to make good sound not by practising bowing but by adjusting soundpost .

claraschu · 26/03/2018 14:28

In general, French violins seem more two dimensional to me, so they often have a lovely sound, but you feel like the violin has a sound which you produce, whereas the German violins seem more like they let you create your own sound through them. I know this is a generalisation, and must be taken with a big pinch of salt; it is just my impression.

I would ask the opinion of your son's teacher again, and perhaps another professional player who has a reasonable amount of experience of instruments in this price range. If you decide to buy the German violin you can make an offer which is lower than £4,000. Talk to the dealer about your concerns over resale, and ask if the owner is likely to accept a lower offer. Maybe the dealer is the owner- I don't remember if you said.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 26/03/2018 10:02

Yes, I agree about Old German factory made violins. But when it costs more or less nearer to Old French with equivalent quality, I feel hesitation to jump in as the appearing point of Old German factory made violins is the quality for the value (for me).

I am talking about the £4k one. Yes, it's more reasonable than other violins we've been looking, but £4k is still quite a lot of money. It is in great condition and has nice sound but it is Old German factory made and no label. I am pretty much sure we will struggle to sell it for the same amount when we want to upgrade.

However, if DS loves the sound absolutely and completely, I am happy to buy it knowing we will lose some money. At least he will have fun playing on the violin with the sound he loves for a good few years. We may also end up keeping it as a spare so the selling value may not be a problem in that case.

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claraschu · 25/03/2018 18:40

Oh, that sounds like an excellent option. If you have the borrowed violin, you can wait until something perfect falls into your lap. Your son will also have a better idea of what he wants after he has been playing on a full sized violin for a while.

Old German factory made violins tend to be a good option- lovely, personal sound. My mother had one she played for her whole life, which my son has inherited. It is very sweet and dark, not very loud, but a touching voice.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 25/03/2018 16:42

Well...., quite a few things happened. I took some violins for valuation and got 2nd and 3rd opinions, and we end up having no preference at the moment...

We had two violins DS liked but the teacher disagreed. The teacher seemed to like the English handmade one but DS wouldn't agree. Shock DS is still thinking of the violin with the dangerously thin front panel, and the teacher is still wondering about the £4k non-label German one. I am thinking to get both of them again to see if any of them will work!

The £4k one was one of the first violins we picked and liked. The teacher said we may have felt we had to try more but it may have been the one after all. It could be!

In the meantime I got contacted by jd telling me they received a very nice violin which they were happy for DS to use. DS could keep it until he is 18 if he wants, or return when it's not needed any more. I am getting it sometime this week. If DS likes it, then we don't need to feel pressured to make an immediate purchase.

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claraschu · 24/03/2018 21:36

Any updates? Hope things are going well.