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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 27/04/2018 00:55

Haven't finished the list yet but I just wanted to deliver the happy news first! After spending nearly three months on searching, travelling and trying, we finally bought a violin TODAY!

It's the violin DS loved but I made a big fuss and returned. It came back to him and they've been inseparable ever since. Smile

According to the maker, his new production is better than his earlier one. But DS tried 2017, 2016 and 2015 and liked the earliest of the three which was the one he tried and loved originally. So that's it. Our exhausting, exciting and eye opening hunting has finally reached to the end. We need a bow but that's another story. Wink

I was going to purchase the £5.5k violin mentioned in my first post and started this thread only to question about the pricing. But one comment led to another and I ended up receiving lots of advice which eventually led us to find DS's dream violin. Some people may have rolled their eyes for our tedious journey but it was really interesting experience for us. We learnt so much and met so many fascinating people, including those who kindly contributed to this thread. I couldn't thank enough to all of you who kindly took precious time to share the wisdom and knowledge. Flowers

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 24/04/2018 11:09

We are nearly there but the purchase hasn't been made yet so while waiting for the moment of delivering the happy news I would like to start listing up luthiers/dealers we encountered during our hunting adventure.

The comments are biased by our own personal experience so please don't take them too seriously. I am sure we all have a different view, experience, luck, etc. Although I do favour some over others it's probably lots to do with luck and timing and I can truly say they are all equally professional and respectable.

JP Guiver
We visited them more than a couple of times. I find them very helpful, generous, understanding and fair. As one of the oldest London dealers, they've established reliable reputation. If you live in London and don't know where to start or want to save time from visiting many places, I think I would recommend Guivier. It wouldn't go wrong with them.

Stringers
Equally established and popular for London residents (and Edinburgh). But somehow I heard mixed views. To be honest, as long as you are dealing with human there will always be ones who complain or feel unhappy, so I assume they are as good and reliable as Guivier really. We didn't go there initially because our teacher was not very keen (but she was talking from few examples she encountered) and later on we tried to visit but it didn't happen simply for logistic reason.

Matthew Coltman
Another reputable place in London. He is a bow maker though he has good stock of stringed instruments. When we visited, a lady was making a cello. Matthew showed DS bow making and let DS have a go just for fun. Friendly, helpful and honest. The £4k German was from his shop. The teacher liked it and said it would be good enough as a forever violin if DS wouldn't go down a professional route. It may still be available if you are interested!

My list is pretty long so will continue the rest another time. Smile

OP posts:
Original poster
Kutik73 · 21/04/2018 15:38

I can kind of agree especially when the budget was tight.

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GrannyHaddock · 21/04/2018 15:08

se22mother a good new instrument will always beat an average or crummy old one, especially once the initial settling-in period is over.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 17/04/2018 17:44

We didn't have any preference so looked both old and new ranging from 1700 to 2017. The violin DS likes most is made in 2015 and it's never had an owner so kind of new. We may end up buying a total bland new though. The same maker is just finishing his latest creation and is going to show us once it's done. So we'll probably buy either 2015 or 2018 of the same maker.

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se22mother · 17/04/2018 11:28

Kutik I'm very glad to hear your search is almost over. We are trying to find a nice 3/4 for dd but the strange Child doesn't like the idea of old instruments. Thinking I will leave this chat to her teacher as she respects his opinions.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 17/04/2018 09:57

stringme, I am seriously fascinated by the art and skills. It could be one of my retirement hobbies then - to learn how to make violins! It must be an expensive hobby though. You need lots of equipment. One of the carving knives a luthier showed DS was more expensive than any violin DS has tried. Shock

Betterto, unfortunately it seems pretty common to have stronger and weaker strings. Very hard to find all are equally balanced. However I was told lower registers are harder to make significant improvement. So it's good that you have good G and D.

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stringmealong · 17/04/2018 07:30

The place to study to become a luthier in the uk is Newark. There is also the Cambridge amateur makers courses that run short courses which I've always been tempted by - a fascinating craft!

Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 23:41

Taggie, I thought of marking but I fear the unnecessarily long bow may cause DS to develop unwelcoming bad habit. If we decide to stick to 3/4 for a while, we will consider borrowing from jd as you suggested.

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 23:28

Kitty, I'm the same - never came across the word/job before DS started violin! If I had known I may have wanted to become one. Their work is so fascinating. DS is also very much interested in the every step of violin making. He's learnt so much for the last two months that he speaks like a proper craftsman or dealer observing the material for the body, fingerboard and pegs, one or two panels, slim or fat shape, skilled work of scroll, colour of varnish, etc! A luthier was so delighted by DS's obvious fascination that he showed DS his precious tools and even gave him some advice on becoming a luthier! He recommended DS a school in Italy. Grin

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BettertoChange · 16/04/2018 22:14

DS seems dumb at everything. He doesn't mind playing the new 800 pounds violin. He can't sense the different of his few quid bow and his teacher's 10k euro one. BTW, after few weeks play, the new violin sound opened well. His teacher said the G D are good and E A a little bit tight. She suggest to play little longer to see if the adjustment is needed.

TaggieOHara · 16/04/2018 22:05

Kutik - DS2’s quarter size bow was part of a £150 outfit. Really hideous. He went onto the half size bow as soon as he got the new violin, but it hasn’t been ideal. I marked ‘his’ middle and point with tape, but we have still had a horrible battle with a crooked bow, bounce point in the wrong place etc. He is only now growing into it, just as he grows out of the violin. I think we will stick with this lovely bow for several more months!

Perhaps jd can lend your DS a decent 3/4 bow for a few months?

OlennasWimple · 16/04/2018 21:54

Kitty - changing strings can make all the difference, though there will always be a limit to how good a cheaper instrument will sound

KittyMcKitty · 16/04/2018 21:54

Thank you so much everyone for the advice - yes I think it must be the vibrato (that would fit in with when her teacher started mentioning it).

And I now know that a Luthier isn’t just a misspelt detective- how have I got through 50 years without ever coming across this word / job?

I’ll have a chat with her teacher this week and work out the best way forward Smile

Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 21:48

Oh dear stringme! DS's crappy one was around £40!!!

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 21:45

Which gives me a bit of headache actually. Because, I don't see any point of buying another 3/4, so DS has to stick to his crappy bow rather than getting a lovely full sized bow! Not sure what I should do when re hair is needed...

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stringmealong · 16/04/2018 21:41

Kitty -
£400-700 outfit & you should see a significant improvement. At grade 4 Vibrato will be becoming a requirement & it doesn't matter how hard you try, you just can't vibrate properly on a £100 instrument especially if it's from a music shop not a luthier (it won't have had any bridge adjustments etc). Just make sure the bow is of at least £100 quality it makes all the difference

Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 21:37

Kitty, hope you will find a suitable violin for your DD. Quite many violin specialist shops stock wide range of nice student violin under £1000. I do believe it's worthwhile upgrading if you can afford. DS's friend managed to reach G8 standard (no exam taken) on a £100-200 violin but it was 1/2 not a full size and the teacher hated the violin with passion! He now has a nice order-made 3/4 violin which cost only £1000 (bargain for a handmade). Smile

oenophilia, Allianz seems very popular on MN! I will definitely check it out! Thank you also for your advice on the bow. It seems 3/4 is just right now. A full sized bow seems a bit too long.

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oenophilia · 16/04/2018 19:52

We insure all the family's (8 at the last count) instruments with Allianz and it's very simple to do online and you can specify the level of cover you need. We got DDs 4/4 cello a few months back at Caswells near Banbury, then chose a bow there to go with it. It's astonishing how different the same instrument sounds with the different bows. In terms of bow size for a violinist, his arm should be pretty much straight when the bow is pulled right to the tip.

KittyMcKitty · 16/04/2018 09:08

Thank you stringmealong really useful to know. Dd’s Violin teacher will help us with choosing a violin but I’d like to get a feel for what to be looking at. £500-£750 is probably the range I would be thinking of - do you think it’s worthwhile upgrading at only grade 4 (dd enjoys the violin and I would anticipate her continuing playing throughout school but it’s obviously never going to be a career and competes for her time along with drama, her sport she plays competitively and her school work).

Would changing bow and strings make a significant difference? (Sorry I know nothing!!)

stringmealong · 16/04/2018 08:36

Kitty - in my opinion, anything between 100 & 400 is a waste of money as they generally only improve quality of fittings & fixings no difference in the quality of the wood used or anything like that. A £500 outfit (with case & bow) is the next worthwhile upgrade - otherwise just spend £100 on a better bow, £50 on better strings, maybe upgrade to a better bridge?

KittyMcKitty · 16/04/2018 08:24

Have read this thread with interest- thank you.

Can I ask some advice (I know nothing about violins) - dd is 12 and has a 4/4 violin bought from our local music shop for just over £100. Her teacher has suggested that we get her a better violin (she is only grade 4 so nothing like the dc on this thread - I’m in awe of these dc talents) - what sort of ball park figure am I looking at for a better violin? I can’t afford (or justify) £1000’s but would like something better for her?

claraschu · 16/04/2018 07:52

Oh that's exciting that you are getting close. It sounds very hopeful that he still loves that instrument after all the looking around you have done.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 16/04/2018 02:39

claraschu, no, afraid it's going to be returned. We received two violins, one of which was the one DS always liked. We tested three of them in different rooms/places, and the one DS always liked was a winner.

A problem is we don't know what the teacher says and we won't see her until the end of this month...

stringme, thank you for the info about Caswell Strings. The posting and trying system will def take pressure off of when to start looking around as we don't need to wait for a school holiday. Though DS is keen to go back to Cardiff!

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stringmealong · 15/04/2018 20:47

Caswell Strings in the king of bows & will send collections by post for you to try at leisure. By far the easiest way & you can just keep trying until you find ones you like to compare. I honestly don't know any shop with a bigger stock