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Original poster

4/4 Violin hunting

540 replies

Kutik73 · 12/02/2018 17:41

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

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MidLifeCrisis007 · 09/05/2018 06:53

Hello again Kutik!

It was a cello that DH bought at auction last time - a lovely old German factory made one that my DD now has and loves. He's also since bought 2 fantastic bows at auction. Anecdotally, the kids' cello teacher loved one of them so much, he sold it to her.... and because he's a"business man", he added the princely sum of £1 to his costs so that he made a profit!!!

His latest obsession is finding a 4/4 cello for DS who is 11 and has only just progressed from a 1/2 to a 3/4. He's planning ahead and searching every auction in the sodding world for cello bargains! He gets alerts every day of new cello listings. I'm rather dreading him finding one as he's enjoying the hunt so much....it has become his obsession.

This is one that he'd planned to bid on but got distracted on a work call so missed the auction (snigger!!!). www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/anderson-and-garland-newcastle/catalogue-id-srand10146/lot-963c40ec-0f61-447c-ab5c-a8ce00c96d9c I think the luthier in question makes some lovely instruments but there is very little information about him. I think it went for about £2k but is probably worth up to 5 x that.

se22mother · 08/05/2018 10:43

Granny thanks for the advice

se22mother · 08/05/2018 10:42

kutik I have pm'd you the name of the luthier- I don't think you went to see him, but I may be mistaken

GrannyHaddock · 08/05/2018 10:39

Bows are very personal: the weight does come into it; some like a heavier or light bow, but the balance is the most important and the right bow will do much of the work for you.

GrannyHaddock · 08/05/2018 10:31

se22 are you considering buying a new instrument? Yitamusic are currently selling a beautiful looking 3/4 violin for £176. Add £65 postage and £50 for proper strings. I have bought many instruments and bows from this Shanghai company. These violins are beautifully made and incredible value since you are not paying a shop's mark-up. You can return the violin at your own expense if it's not satisfactory. I never have. Find them on EBay (font let that put you off). Go to advanced search, search by company name as above and it will take you to their "shop". If you do go this route it would be wise to take the violin to a repairer to to check out the setup. I find some small tweaks are necessary, but nothing much. They are sending out near-perfect items, unlike the cellos I once bought from a well-known makers.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 08/05/2018 10:21

Good points!

DS's teacher once spent a year to find 'it'. It won't prob happen to us though and I presume it'll be rather quick as we don't really have strong opinion on bows yet. Or does he???

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GrannyHaddock · 08/05/2018 10:09

At least bows can be posted in reasonable safety in a plastic tube. There need not be the same amount of legwork involved.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 08/05/2018 10:03

se22, is it one of the luthiers on my list? If so you should have no problem. Good luck!

I need to start thinking of the bow. But perhaps it's wiser to wait till DS's grade exam finishes. But this means our bow hunt may not start till July. DS will be away for the whole summer as soon as school finishes. I am hoping to get a bow before secondary starts so ideally need to find it before summer holiday. Is bow hunt prone to take time as much or longer than violin hunt? I hope not!

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se22mother · 08/05/2018 08:27

Thanks granny and kutik I will contact the luthier and see if he can do an extension. If he can't I'm sure there will be other 3/4 violins which are appropriate.

GrannyHaddock · 07/05/2018 22:13

Any seller worth their salt would understand that. I wouldn't advise dealing with anybody who didn't. Time pressure is absolutely what you don't need when choosing an instrument. As long as the seller knows who and where you are they should let you get on with it in your own time, within reason.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 07/05/2018 21:21

Granny, I totally agree one week is nothing! Yet many luthiers I encounters had this one week policy. However all of them were very flexible. We returned in time for the violins we clearly knew we wouldn't want, but there were four violins we seriously considered purchasing and they all stayed with us MORE THAN A MONTH. We didn't need to negotiate but just explained why we needed to keep (each had a slightly different reason) but also offered to return asap if required (other clients were interested etc). They all understood it was a big shopping therefore hard to decide so soon, and actually advised me to take time.

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 07/05/2018 21:21

I hope MidLifeCrisis007's recent auction challenge has gone well.... They did wonderfully for a violin....

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GrannyHaddock · 07/05/2018 20:19

PS, I wouldn't think that one week would be anything like long enough to try a violin, especially if a teacher is involved and holidays intervene.

GrannyHaddock · 07/05/2018 20:12

A violin maker told me years ago that apart from the star, headline instruments, many of the violins in auctions are what are now called "distress" sales , i.e. their sellers cannot dispose of them in any other way, and auctioning is their last resort.
Repairers/restorers might well be interested in them, but anybody looking for an instrument to play immediately needs to be very cautious and ideally involve an expert adviser.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 06/05/2018 23:03

Martin Restall in Midhurst

He owns one of the most amazing workshops really. Sadly he is moving out very soon as the lease of the building is coming to end. The new place is in the same area and again very much interesting (but I really love his current place).

Anyway, DS's ex-violin teacher told us about him. The teacher bought 1/2 violin for his dd many years ago (then he bought 3/4 in Bristol). I rang Martin and told him what we were looking for and made a booking for a visit. When we arrived, nearly 10 violins were selected and put out on a table for DS to try. We were given plenty time to try all. This visit was made after I decided to re-start our search by dropping our budget so the selection was all pretty reasonable. After trying all, we wanted to see violins a little bit more expensive. Martin kindly brought a few more and let DS try as much as he wanted.

Martin's large collection seems to have grown by offering part-exchange. He said generally those violins bought from the clients are a lot better in condition than those found in auction and often only a bit of cleaning up is needed so he hardly buy violins from auction.

The reasonable old German with very loud sound which DS's teacher disliked with passion was from his workshop. For his defence, I did told him we were after big sound prior to the first visit, and with that price range he did made right selection for us. It was more like me who hadn't understood what 'big sound' meant and what the teacher was looking for so I couldn't really explain very well and Martin just followed my poor instruction of 'reasonable' yet 'big sound'.

When I returned, I told him everything honestly. He then said he understood more what kind of violin DS's teacher was looking for and agreed to help us find something more suitable.

Anyhow, soon after that we moved on to another violin from other luthier so didn't go back to Martin in the end. But he has lots of interesting instruments as well as bows. It's a bit pain for us to drive there - just a bit too far. So I am not sure if we go back for bows.

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Original poster
Kutik73 · 06/05/2018 19:37

se22, how exiting!

Luthiers are very understanding so just tel him that you won't see the teacher for a week. I am sure he will happily give you more time. I was in the same situation, especially during Easter. There was no way I could see the teacher in a week time. I explained the situation to them and some violins happened to stay with us a little too long!

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se22mother · 06/05/2018 18:35

Gave not face

se22mother · 06/05/2018 18:35

Kutik we visited a luthier today and have a 3/4 on approval. DD's teacher isn't even around for a week and I see he face us exactly 7 days, plus we'd like to get a second option to compare against. How did you get longer than one week for approval?

Original poster
Kutik73 · 02/05/2018 12:09

Agree again with the nightmare of 30 kids visiting a poor luthier. Grin

Thanks for your comment on the mute. DS ditched the practice mute and decided to use the tiny one he normally uses for orchestra. It doesn't dampen the sound like the bulky practice mute but still works for occasional practice when loud sound is not welcomed.

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GrannyHaddock · 02/05/2018 11:16

I wouldn't expect that many violin makers could deal with more than a handful of visitors at one time. Lack of space, many sharp tools, machinery, bottles of chemicals, glues; an H&S nightmare!
Re practise mutes: they are inevitably bulky.The metal ones might be smaller but are very heavy, so change the whole balance of the player, and can chew up the bridge. Some believe they continue to affect the violin's sound after being removed. Interestingly, some composers are writing for strings using practise mutes as a special effect.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 02/05/2018 10:10

I agree, it's so educational (and beautiful). DS appreciates more now after the many visits we made to workshops, not only violin but all those involved great craftmanship around him. I was told carefully written books should be read equally carefully when I was a kid. It's all about appreciation and recognition of the great art.

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NeverEverAnythingEver · 02/05/2018 07:58

Violin workshops are beautiful places. Maybe his classmates can be persuaded? Grin

Actually the thing to do is to persuade school that it's a marvelous educational opportunity.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/05/2018 14:12

Ah, the Rows. DS tried their violins. He is going to The Isle of Wight as a school trip very soon. He was excitedly telling me he could be able to visit their workshop. I'm afraid none of his classmates is interested so it's very much unlikely to happen! Ha ha.

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4tune · 01/05/2018 13:38

So sorry to mention violas neverGrin! I understand your situation (DS also plays 3 instruments and won't give up any of them to concentrate on 1 or 2) but I've somehow succumbed to the argument that playing viola as a 4th adds versatility, opportunity, and 'another string to my bow'! DS hasn't had viola lessons but his violin teacher encouraged him to play viola as they needed one for an ensemble and thus history was made...
Great advice Granny thank you. Funnily enough my DH had looked up Hill's because he'd heard of Elspeth and Christopher Rowe and wanted to add them to a wish list to try.

Original poster
Kutik73 · 01/05/2018 13:27

Hmm, DS may take up viola at some point so I am quietly interested in where this viola discussion goes.

I've asked this on our regular music thread but thought I may attract more string players on this thread so let'me have a go with the same question here. Do you use a practice mute? DS has a bulky plastic one but he hates it as he cannot see beyond the mute/bridge due to the bulkiness. I was just wondering if there is any slimmer version available. I am not keen on metal as it's quite risky for a 10 years old to handle on an expensive violin!

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