Grade 8? Really?

There are pros and cons to any system, but I feel that English system is quite good. There is no rigorous training like in other countries which means children enjoy learning music, they have opportunities to try various instruments, there are plenty of orchestras - from pretty basic school ones to high profile orchestras like NCO or NYO, various performance festivals, students can move at their own pace when learning, and those who prove to be talented can enroll to specialist music schools. Many kids still play when grown up.

The major flaws in my opinion are - no unification in teaching and cost of lessons.

NotAMusician members of London Philharmonic
www.lpo.org.uk/about/musician-biographies/

English National Ballet
www.ballet.org.uk/the-company/orchestra/members/

However, I don't feel there is an obvious explanation of a number of homegrown to foreign musicians as, say, homegrown musicians may prefer to be self-employed and have various assignments with different orchestras (I know some) whilst foreigners may need a secure employment with one orchestra for immigration status reasons. This is not to mention that English musicians may move to States for the very same reason as European and Asian musicians move into here.
But I don't know for sure, I am just speculating

Interesting reading.

That's a fascinating article! British orchestral players are renowned for sight reading and operating on smaller quantities of rehearsal than our European counterparts - not sure if that's to do with the grade system or the conservatoire/orchestral training though.

I know my violin teacher has quite a few ex-pupils in top orchestras both in the UK and all over the world. Mind you we're from Australia ... When my sister first moved to London she developed a stronger Australian accent than she'd ever had before because she was spending so much time with other Australian musicians ...!

I put my son through grade 5 violin to give him a benchmark - which was useful - but it actually stalled overall progress for quite a while. I don't want him to do another till grade 8. He did piano exams grade 3-5 and again is having an exam break and may well only do grade 8 there. I'm now teaching violin and the reason I've kept on with violin having always viewed myself as a "serious amateur" is fundamentally because of all the orchestral work I've done over the years, and more recently chamber music. My teaching approach is "music focussed" rather than "book focussed" if that makes sense, and I'm thrilled that my students have access to orchestras to play in, even the most recent beginner - I'll leave systematic music reading to happen in that context and just deal with what we need when we need it otherwise.

I was grade 7ish at 18. A lot of people I knew had grade 8 on piano and their main instrument, plus g8 theory, before we left school. It seemed to be virtually compulsory for applying to medicine in particular. can you tell there were pushy parents there

Some of the people I knew were paying ££££ to go on tour abroad etc and yet had no real ensemble ability- not looking at the conductor, each other, or the quartet leader. I think the ABRSM exams are a load of shite, it's all about playing the same 3 pieces for a year which sucks the joy out of it all.

Anyone know the percentage of homegrown musician in these top orchestra ?

Thanks for your link, its a very interesting read. It reminds me of the time my father in law studied in Russia for 10 years. He often tells us the story now which we still find it fascinating listening it numerous times

Article about music training in Russia
www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy-my-musical-training-in-soviet-russia

drummersmum, this is true, UK's musical education is pretty much orchestra oriented. I don't know about Germany but I know about Russia - they are soloists oriented, whoever plays in the orchestra is just an unsuccessful soloist :) I highly recommend 'Unfinished Journey' by Yehudi Menuhin - he makes some interesting comparison of two systems.
I also know some Russian people and according to them-sight reading is not taught very well in Russia, unlike the UK.

I must admit I'm a bit buffled. According to this thread, the UK music learning style does not produce good ensemble players and sight-readers. Yet when I talk to professional musicians, both in the UK and abroad, there is a consensus about two things:
1 - The UK does not produce as many international level famous soloists as other countries (Russia, Germany, etc)
2 - However, it is renowned worldwide for its orchestras.
These two undeniable facts are, according to the experts, because the UK learning style produces mainly ensemble players and sight-readers.

There seems to be a bit of pressure around to get through Grades before GCSEs/Alevels, which probably doesn't help. Not a philosophy we subscribed too.

My DC have played in bands in and out of school since they started playing, and DS1 has just joined uni wind bands, giving him an instant social life.

I know exactly what you mean. My music teacher used to say that grades were only the beginning of learning how to play

As another poster has said, Grade 8 is not a high level. It may possibly show that you have learnt the absolute basics for your instrument. It is a long way off the level at which the conservatoires will consider anyone.

Some teachers push pupils through grades too quickly and they don't play any pieces than the three per grade selected. They therefore have a very limited knowledge of music. This is made worse by the main exam boards publishing books of "exam music". So, for instance, a pupil may learn the first movement of a sonata for a couple of terms for an exam, but neither the teacher nor the pupil will think it worthwhile to study the rest of the sonata. It's like learning the first two phrases of a song but not the rest. I've also come across teachers who don't encourage their pupils to find out about the lives of the composers they are studying, or to independently explore other works by them.

Sightreading and ensemble skills should go hand in hand. It is easy for teachers to get two or three pupils together for duet/trio sessions, and to make playing duets a regular part of each lesson, but some do not.

Having good ensemble and sightreading skills is far more likely to encourage a pupil to carry on playing after school than a piece of paper suggesting they are of a certain standard, but unfortunately some parents like to boast about their little darlings.

It's good to read this - I'm going to save it for when I get anxious about ds not being pushed through grades (he learns in a different way to his school colleagues who are on a more Grade focused track at school)!

Dd is only lower grade so can't comment but loves band, partly because of practice but a lot of it is getting to perform with a group which she loves. Sight reading is not her strongest point, mainly because she likes to do what she wants with the music in front of her rather than make it sound how it's meant to. She loves it when they get new pieces at band though, she tells me it's different to sight reading in an exam as you get a conductor!

I think peer to peer assessment is good in these circumstances, but not sure again how this would work with an LA working on a shoe string of human resources.
dd said she has learned so much from visiting the various ensembles in the school.
They have up to 2 hours lunch and during this time they have to go and visit a performance class, any ensemble other than their own dept, so many times a term. They have a card they have to have signed off.
She loves going to strings, Brass, percussion and the Symphony Orchestra and Chamber choir.
unfortunately, she says everyone wants to come and hear her Jazz ensembles, so they get quite full
I know it's a different type of school with far more opportunities for the children, but my point is they see the importance of an all round musical education, the importance of the emerging musician rather than the children being good at operating an instrument.
Bearing in mind they must know what they are talking about, pugs is right.

Perhaps ensemble auditioners should take a leaf out of the jazzers' book charts and include playing in ensembles as part of the audition. Perhaps sight-read one part of a duet or play one part of a trio/quartet/quintet with other auditionees + a pro.

Somethings are a technical skill and others just a part of being more mature.

In her primary school orchestra, my DD was lead violin although she was only grade 3 when there was a much younger boy who was grade 5. I asked her why she was lead violin? It didn't seem fair. She explained that he was really good, but got a bit confused in the group. Then there was a Xmas concert. The DC got a bit muddled, as happens for primary school aged children. Sure enough, out of 4 violins my own DD in year 6 was the only one who managed to keep on playing the song through to the end. Some of the younger, talented violinists got muddled, panicked and quit playing. It's no big deal, that's what playing in a primary school orchestra is all about, anyway, gaining the experience.

My point is, DC can sometimes grow and gain skills at an uneven pace. What you need to pass grade exams is not everything that you need to participate in group music making.

Grade 8 is an amateur grade. It is still far far away from professional.

I agree. I got fed up of grades at about 4 and stopped but had lessons for several years after and player in a wide variety of ensembles etc which I loved.
At nearly 40 I still do so. And love it. I don't see the harm in doing grades but it really is not the be all and end all. Some of my friends' parents were completely fanatical about it. Mostly the completely un-musical ones (my parents were both music teachers and completely unfussed about grades once I started enjoying playing in different groups).

However I did do music joint honours at uni and they were distinctly unimpressed when I told them I didn't have any grade 8s, despite having an A at music a-level.

Pug, most of the kids, if start early with little practice should be able to pass grade 8 at the age 14-16. I would like say its a fun for them instead of "slave". And any one who pass grade 8 with merits or above should be easily fitted in Chamber music shortly after practice. I would rather assume the kids you happen to visit haven't had that training like your DD.

I agree. I have Grade 7 in piano and I can't actually play a thing!

drummer I never knew that, but I suppose it's not unusual. They sort of came from nowhere and won Eurovision, their fame was unparalleled and quite unexpected, I believe.

Absolutely great Marimba btw.

Back to the thread now

I can see both sides tbh. I don't see how children have the time to put in the amount of practice they need to become a good all rounder.
I have noticed a huge improvement in the areas of weakness dd had before starting her school.
However, music takes up 1/3 of their school day and they have practice and ensembles on top of this. I don't know how anybody could emulate this, especially if they would have to travel between different providers.
I agree that sight reading and playing in ensembles are practised skills, but also that there seems a rush to complete grades.
I can absolutely agree with pugs on this one.
There is a big difference between learning to become accomplished and taking exams when you are already at that level or the one above, and constantly working towards the next exam.

Nobody in Abba could read or write music. They had to pay someone to actually transcribe their compositions which were ALL done by ear.