Grade 8? Really?

We do in general seem a bit obsessed by grades. I have experience of Japan where grades are not the norm. There are pros and cons but have seen some great young musicians. Also I get the sense from specialist music schools that really not that important per se. Learning to be a musician is what is important.

A key aspect of the Nco audition is sightreading, so I'm quite surprised by what you saw especially as Nco standard is extremely high. I do have a 12 year old, grade 8 violinist, who is a member of the Nco age banded orchestra and regionals. She is lucky enough to have a teacher who courages ensemble playing, so is very comfortable with sight reading And playing in a group

Pugs- many members of the NCO play in the regionals which meet weekly (AFAIAA, we're too far away).
Maybe the children you describe in your OP were just being teenagers, rather than operating at full musical capacity?

Trinity Guildhall is certainly on a par with ABRSM. There may be fewer scales, but they mark their pieces in a different and stricter way.

Fair enough. I was quite a long time ago I was doing exams and looking at different boards.

who you think would enjoy playing, say, piano, but won't ever be brilliant
You can't decide for your child. They have to decide how brilliant they want to become. How brilliant they become will depend of much they work at it. Brilliancy comes with lots and lots of practice. Pieces, scales, sight-reading, etudes, listening to the greats, wanting to challenge themselves. Again and again.

Exams should not be the end of it all but they provide a structure for progress which is useful for many students and teachers. For orchestral instruments, I agree weekly ensemble practice is a must, but together with individual lessons and progress which can be assesed by exams or teacher. It's an individual choice. But exams or not exams, the only thing that counts is the work, the hours and the quality of the teaching.

I've heard other exam boards vary a lot and usually easier compared to ABRSM but I've never done exams with the others (no examiners for other boards where I am) but I've had a look at pieces and they seem easier.
Trinity is definitely not easier. Rockschool is hard to compare because it's very specific, but their drumkit syllabus is at the level of Trinity Guildhall.

I hadn't realised how lucky my DC are then, with teachers that have always featured duets in lessons. DS2 does a piano duet class in our Festival too. And they play each week in the Music Service Concert Band and could do Orchestra, plus a wide variety of school ensembles. And their teachers don't rattle through every grade!

I've just filled in DS2s application form for NYO Inspire though, as I think it still has a lot to offer.

The ABRSM Jazz exams are very different to the others. You can only go as far as grade 5 and doing grade 5 jazz means you don't need to do their grade 5 theory as its so different to their practical exams. Before being forced to give up I was going to do grade 1 jazz, I found it much harder though more interesting than their other practicals.

I've heard other exam boards vary a lot and usually easier compared to ABRSM but I've never done exams with the others (no examiners for other boards where I am) but I've had a look at pieces and they seem easier.

Ah, but that's why doing lots of sight reading practice is very important on piano - and all those scales! It's true that you have to develop the skill to be always looking ahead.
I would be happy to do improv in my lessons, just feel too old to cope with it in an exam!

Thanks loose that is interesting about the other boards. Worth bearing in mind if you have a dc who you think would enjoy playing, say, piano, but won't ever be brilliant - there's a lot to be said for learning to improv or play by ear if you just want to play for fun.

I'm sure you'd be able to pass! (with a bit of teaching, obv!) Imv learning only to play from a score means you never really learn to predict what note/sound you want and find the relevant key (on the piano - it may be different on other instruments), so you're left floundering without a score, even for really simple pieces. But I realise that may be a controversial point of view...

Oh god, don't add playing by ear and improv to grade 4 piano, I'll never pass it!! I can just about manage the aural exercises.
Improvisation skills depend on which instrument and which board. Usual ABRSM exams are aimed mainly at classical repertoire where improvisation isn't required. However, I think their jazz exams are different and other boards definitely have scope for improvisation. I think it depends on what kind of music you want to play.

OP, in your opinion, why do you think that children form national level orchestras don't have good sight reading and can not play well in ensemble?

Still, I feel there is too little information to make a fair judgement of the situation...
I personally don't see anything wrong with grade 8 at 12, however I agree that it is not the option for anyone.

Very surprise ! The player in NYO is almost professional. Not only technical but also musical. Can't believe the standard is that low.

Very interesting thread!

Sight reading is important, but i also think a problem with grades is that you get no teaching at all in how to play by ear, or how to improvise (different things, obviously! but both reliant on being able to play without a written score) Is that because it's just not regarded as an important skill for serious musicians? It's actually well worth being able to do if you're an amateur -which of course the vast majority of those learning an instrument are destined to be!

I agree with youOnly and I must admit some of the comments about grade8 meaning nothing make me laugh. The OP was presumably describing a school ensemble? Our school is lucky to pull musicians off the football and rugby pitches and no one is in NCO orNYO!
Grade 8 to me looks like a huge achievement.I am still doing the same 3 pieces for grade4 but I find doing them does mean I can pick up other things more easily.
I keep working on technique with my teacher - if we weren't 't doing an exam there's a point where she'd say good enough and we'd leave it, which is a shame.
I think it was lack of rehearsal time that affected the performance the OP heard not the grade system and I think any group of musicians who aren't used to playing together can sound poor - possible exception being jazz.

I think it depends on teachers. When I learnt the grades were a natural progression, not goals, and everyone was to play in school orchestra and sing in choir once they were at grade two standard, we were also told to join local orchestras outside of school as well - if we didn't he refused to teach us. The exam pieces were far from the only ones learnt and the teacher always used other exam pieces for sight reading - which worked well and meant I did well in that section (!) and tested every scale every week.

My teacher drummed into every student/pupil he only taught music techniques NOT how to pass exams (got boring very fast!). My teacher was tough, most people gave up and I wanted to many many times but being honest his teachings have helped me in many ways. He died years ago.

I can be very harsh when listening to concerts, not delibrately but I'm aware I do it. Partly it's because I can no longer play (disability) and want to but also the teaching I had means I can hear when mistakes are being made and cannot ignore them - our teacher would regularly have us listen recordings and ask us if we could hear any mistakes!

EllyMayClampett I think it was fair that your dd was lead violin in spite of lower grades. Maturity is important for this role and this what your dd obviously had!

Finished reading the discussion...
Feel a bit strange about the points above.... Firstly-what is the problem with grades? Grades are just the milestones. I am to blame teaching for quick and unnecessary grades. It is not a problem with grades or ABRSM-it is a problem with teachers who don't build students repertoire and skills and just teach them three grade pieces (for one year? as said above). If it takes one year to practice three pieces than student is not ready to play at that level, surely? Is'n it up to the teacher to choose various pieces and develop student's practical music skills? Surely neither parents nor students tell teachers how to teach? Parents are responsible too though-it is their duty to choose the right and competent teacher for their dc.

Secondly, it is strange to hear that kids are in National orchestras and cannot play together or sight read (don't they test it in a first place when auditioning for major kids orchestras?). And are they supposedly or grade 8+ level? I mean how correct is information about their grades? There can be hundreds of reasons why they didn't sound well
-some could be quite low in grades
-some just started to play in ensemble
-some were learning by Suzuki method
-they didn't have enough rehearsals
-they didn't practice their pieces in between rehearsals which is important too
-could be that OP just was a bit harsh? :)

Sorry, don't mean to be harsh to anyone but this what sprung into my mind whilst reading all the answers....

Oh, I really enjoyed the Russian article as well. Like the idea that the Bolsheviks wanted to completely overturn all aspects of society - but not ballet and music!

It's an interesting discussion. I am always amazed by kids getting to grade 8 by the end of primary! Mine are the more usual ones who sort of hope to get there by the end of secondary! however, they like playing in groups much more than taking exams and funnily enough they are very good at sight reading.
I think the clue was in the OP's mention of little rehearsal time. I knew an amateur orchestra in London that sounded as at least as good as some professional ones and the reason wasn't because they were grade 8 or above (though they were), it was due to the experience of playing together every week in concerts and rehearsals - they just knew what everyone else was doing and what the conductor wanted. And they were bothered enough to listen to his critique of a concert after the peformance! i imagine what the OP experienced was a group of young soloists who happened to be sitting together and coincidentally playing the same piece but weren't really used to playing together!

Btw, the article above mentions Heinrich Neuhaus as one of the greatest Russian pianists and teachers, his book is available on amazon (don't really know if it is any good, a have a copy from charity shop but have not had time to read it yet :))
www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Piano-Playing-Heinrich-Neuhaus/dp/1871082455/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476392306&sr=8-1&keywords=Heinrich+Neuhaus

I guess, to some extent, it depends why the DC is learning an instrument. I know dcs who are grade 7-8 before they leave primary who have no intention of playing in orchestras. One parent told me, she just wanted her ds to get his grade 8 so that they could concentrate on secondary school entry, and then he could quit!

Rather reassuringly, our local music school starts group ensembles as soon as possible. DS started after 5 lessons, and I think is picking up orchestral skills as he learns his instrument.