Spring/ Summer Music and Musicians Thread

NeverEver 245min academic work a day, now that is what a real tiger mom does.

I have the beauty of both worlds even though none of my DCs are true genius (and I am not sure I would wish for one). DS quite academic (just had parents evening and he is on track of getting As and A*s in all his subjects at GCSEs) but never interested in musical instruments or art, or sports more than average. Tried football and piano, gave up, it isn't his thing. Now academically he just gets it. He doesn't work hard, doesn't put much effort (to my constant frustration) and God only knows when he completes his schools assignments.

DD on the other hand is musical, she can practice without problem for a long time, she gets it. Academically she is ok but to achieve she needs to work. She doesn't just "get it" she needs to practice maths and then practice that particular topic in real life. So if she learns fractions she'd have to apply the concept in real life to understand it. While funnily enough, she understands how many beats in a bar but even though we talked about it she doesn't see the connection of splitting the bar notes in fractions, quarter note, half note etc. Puzzling....

misti

I completely agree with you.
I don't think exams necessarily identify talent.
on paper my dd is not very good at all, certainly nothing spectacular.
She hasn't even done her grade 5 theory yet, so obviously not done practical exams passed grade 5.
In her audition she moved the panel to tears (voice) and played pieces well beyond gr5 and also improvised a Jazz standard.

She isn't an academic achiever and would never have passed an 11+ paper.
She has extra support with Maths and is currently being assessed for spld and ASD, ADHD and several others.

Get her in a practice room or on a stage and she comes to life.

exam
I believe they will practice if they want to do it.
My friend was the same with Ballet lessons which cost her quite a bit in the end.
When her dd was little the first time she said she couldn't be bothered she picked up her shoes and put them in a carrier bag to take to the charity shop.
her dd soon found her motivation to go to her class as she wanted to continue.

I'd threaten to sell the instruments/ stop lessons and put the ball in the dc court tbh.

Oh yes and I have sympathy with the transport problems that three cellos must involve dinosaur - it is bad enough with guitars! We have an estate car now which makes life a lot easier.

I doubt my teenagers regularly do 15-25 mins homework a day. They do have longer days than British kids though, and DD tends to get stuff done in free periods at school (whereas DS saves it all up and then spends the last weekend of the holidays doing nothing but homework - and he doesn't have music practice as an excuse).

We have a public holiday on Thursday which means DD misses another piano lesson - I think she's had one in the last five weeks. Fortunately it seems that her audition at the conservatoire will be in June, rather than this month. It may still be a battle to get the Chopin done properly in time, but she has two easier pieces ready to go that would be more than adequate as her optional pieces.

at 15-245 min academic work.

"Unless of course you realise "Mozart" lives with you but that is a different matter."

I read or heard somewhere that Mozart composed his first symphony (or something else) when he was told to be quiet in the house when his father was not feeling well. My children are definitely not Mozart.

dinosaur 3 cellos! We only cart one around and that's plenty!

No advice about exam, but one DC was entered for an exam that he wasn't ready for and failed and it took ages picking up the pieces. I'm happy to say that he did get over it and did well in his last exam. But it was hard work on my part and on his part too, I think.

That should say 15-25 min (not 245 min)

I think we are all speaking the same language: doing homework in the car is the same as not "giving up" on academics. For me primary school as "fun" would mean that DCs would not actually lift a finger in their spare time. In reality I don't see the fun in doing 10 min exam papers in the car, or practising time tables, even though we do do it. But my idea of fun is different.

So while DD is not hot-housed (as we didn't hire a tutor and she's not practising 3 hours a day) I am expecting around 15-245 min academic work daily being homework or 10 min tests for 11+ aside her piano practice.

What I would not be happy with: 3 hours of piano practice a day without other interests (she's only 8, too early to decide she wants to be a pianist) or 3 hours of academic work a day (kids need to be kids and have fun).

There should be a balance. Unless of course you realise "Mozart" lives with you but that is a different matter.

Hello - so lovely to find this thread! I have 3 DCs

DS1(9) is going for Grade 6 cello this term
DS2 (7) may / may not go for Grade 4 cello
DD3 (5) is going for cello prep test this term

I'm a violinist, but my eldest son chose cello (and started with Suzuki method which was wonderful). His siblings loved it, so they also chose cello and I have to admit that I love the cello repertoire, but absolutely loathe carrying around 3 cellos everywhere!

DS2 is not as driven as DS1 and I'm not sure he can be ready for Grade 4 in 7 weeks. He has the 3 pieces and half his scales done, but Grade 4 (ABRSM) has tricky aural tests and sight-reading. His teacher wants to enter him - and I do agree it would give him a great boost. Does anyone know if there is a big downside to entering now, but abstaining from the exam in June if I feel his confidence will take a knock by taking it? (apart from the cost of course - that's a big downside).

Commenting from a local West London perspective, there are many children that are exceptional at music entering secondary schools (G8 level), but are equally very bright, enough to have passed all the entrance exams without breaking too much sweat.

I guess the difference is a lot of these children do not have aspirations to go onto specialist music schools at HE, but wish to enjoy their instruments to a high level at school and HE, as part of a wider curriculum programme. Children like this, are able to multi task and not let their academics drop. They are able to do homework on the run, at school, in cars (e.g. learnt from junior school days going from one place to another) and somehow, manage to work under time constraints and still fulfil a very active school/extra curricular life. Not for everyone, but some kids are just like that.

Not sure if there are any stats but I don't actually think that being a music high achiever means the DCs are academically high achievers also.

I absolutely believe that raw musical ability exists separately from academic ability (think of famous blues and jazz musicians for eg) - but formal music exams do not test raw musical ability. To pass grade 5 theory well before the end of primary school (as you would need to do to get to grade 8 by Y6) requires a level of abstract reasoning that is unusual at that age. Learning theory, pieces and scales also requires very good memorisation skills as well as concentration - both strongly correlated with academics.

Art is rather different there is no formal exam-based system, but if you could pass "art exams" which tested things like colour theory, art history, perspective, acquisition of specific art techniques - then you would see a similar correlation between high grades and academic ability.

Fleurdelise, we did do the 10min reasoning tests (books with short tests you were supposed to complete in 10min, we also had them in maths), quite achievable in the car though.

(Not sure what I am doing with this thread, as none of my dc are high mucical achievers/have any ambitions to become so)
....but as said, for me, primary school is for fun, but secondary school is important to get the high GCSE/A level grades. Then as long as they get their high grades, I don't care too much else what they do, if they want to have music lessons, not practise and just to the odd exam, that's fine by me (once in awhile I will shout/threat them to stop paying for the lessons....).

exampanic my Ds has passed an 11+ exam and while I agree that if you are able you don't need much work my experience is that you still need work in a highly tutored society. Verbal and non verbal reasoning is not taught at school at all, the reality is that you need exam techniques to pass them, and also the reality is that most of the bright DCs my Dd's age are already tutored since last year (year 3). We don't plan to do any formal tutoring however we will do exam papers with her as we did with DS.

So as an aside she knows music is highly important however she cannot "give up" on academics at such an early age. This means I do expect her to put an equal effort in her homework and practice papers as she puts in piano practice.

Comp schools in our areas are failing...

NewLife's daughter is very exceptional though, in having such a strong vocation. And obviously I'm not recommending that kids do grade 8 at primary unless they want to and are clearly gifted - just saying that academics and intensive music study aren't incompatible at primary age.

My daughter is academically able but wouldn't have had the persistence or the work ethic to do higher grades at primary. But we haven't really prioritised academics until this year (equiv. Y11), and even now DD just does what she needs to in order to get the results she wants - she doesn't spend a lot of time on school work and music remains a priority, though she's had to drop certain things just because of timetabling (and an element of laziness lol).

She will be faced soon with a decision though as she is leaning towards studying medicine and in the french system I am not at all sure that this is compatible with music, even at DD's fairly casual level.

But now you are talking about GCSE, and that's secondary school. I think that is a different thing.
I just don't think that very academically bright children need to put much work in outside school hours to be able to pass entrance exams.

Not sure if there are any stats but I don't actually think that being a music high achiever means the DCs are academically high achievers also.

As NewLife was saying above, I think there are a lot of circumstances where a highly talented musical child will not be interested in academics at all because they live and breathe music.

And the reverse is bad also, my niece is very art oriented, very talented in a raw way. Her dad never encouraged her as "you starve to death from being a painter". She kept it as a hobby and academically tried her best but her heart wasn't in it. She is now 18 and dropped from A levels to fulfill her dream.

(Newlife4me; Yes, but what am I to do with 3 lots of music lessons (dc1 has 2 and dc1 has 1) for which they don't practise but that they do definitely want to continue????)
Fleurdelise, but the really academically bright children that Mistigri is talking about as well, would do timetables and homework in the car, on the way to music lessons.

Absolutely agree with the general thrust of what you are saying Misti. I think it is a real shame when DC who are bright anyway start to concentrate on academics early on. One of the reasons my academically inclined DC go to a very average local comp is because I actively selected it. It was my experience growing up that academics, for the academically inclined, take care of themselves at school and it is also my experience with my DC. I was therefore looking for an environment which allows them to use their "spare capacity" to develop in other areas like music. OTOH I did not / would not push music to the exclusion of academics either.

NewLife this is what I was talking about, being able to "let go" in terms of academics. This is not a bad thing necessarily, I just can't see myself able to do it.

But as you said, if the child is that way oriented anyway there isn't much you can do as a parent other than respect their choice and pray to God I assume

Fleur

I agree wholeheartedly.
At school dd does min of prep, so much so she's often in trouble for poor academic work. She doesn't want to do it, doesn't see the importance, writes any old rubbish and tries to get in an extra hour practice.
She knows if she scrapes enough GCSE's and a couple of A levels in Music she'll get into the conservatoire of her choice. Why should she do more, is her attitude.
I ask her about a plan B if she doesn't get in, but she refuses to even consider anything else and sees it as a cop out.
I blame her dad and his attitude to his career for this

11+ is what, 20% of the population? So that means the brightest 10% plus another 10% who got lucky or who had sufficiently intensive tutoring. There is literally zero chance that a child capable of doing grade 8 before age 11 is not in the 10% (unless they have a specific learning disability).

I think that most children are talented in music to some degree, obviously more so than others.
however, if they don't do anything with the talent, there's nothing you can do.
I have never met a grade 8 child who hasn't practised for hours a day, although I don't presume they have all been hot housed just like the siblings I know who did it.

My ds2 has the same ability if not more natural talent in his voice than dd, but he doesn't want to do it, more than singing round the house.
He was spotted and encouraged by school from y3 onwards and was asked to try for a chorister.
He'd rather play football, it wasn't him. Now at 21 he sings in the shower
No way do i believe in bribing cajoling arguing about practice, they either want to do it and it comes from within or they don't. No amount of doing it for your parents will make you a musician and they'll hate you later in life.