Violin at 4.5yo?

"And I cry easily - major breakdown girl and borderline Aspie. But if you'd given me a box violin at seven d have told you to get stuffed."

Suzuki is started very young. It is more sensible to use traditional violin methods with a seven year old.How you teach a three year old and a seven year old are very different. Suzuki is designed for teaching small cihdlren who maybe as young as two or three. Most traditional music teachers do not take students as young as three.

A seven year old will be significantly stronger and not have to work at strengthening neck muscles. They also have the maturity to know to look after a violin. The reason a suzuki teacher would use a cardboard violin is that they know that a small tot will struggle to hold a real violin until they have built up strength. If a two year old drops a cardboard box then no harm is done.
A seven year old can learn to read music quickly and easily where as a three year old would struggle.

Worried,

I find Suzuki parents far more "into" Suzuki than ?Suzuki teachers. But I think they have to be - the method relies on strong parental involvement. It's a positive thing, but doesn't work for every family. It wouldn't have worked fir mine, nor most of my students, precisely because of this. And my youngest pianist was 2yo when she started, so I do teach littles. A year on and no, she isn't reading notation, but she will be next year, before starting school. She also isn't playing pieces yet, but she will be learning several short tunes a week next year. From notation, but clapped, read, sung then played.

Being able to play a grade 3 piece doesn't make you a grade 3 student. Being able to sightread it fluently, otoh, makes you around grade 5, I think. I'd hope most exam candidates are in between that!

Pentatonic. Darned auto correct.

I think the point is it always depends on the child, the family, and the teacher. Do you do magnetic fishing with bowhold? It's my favourite.

And I cry easily - major breakdown girl and borderline Aspie. But if you'd given me a box violin at seven d have told you to get stuffed.

Can I just say that I dread a grade 4 student's interpretation of the Bach Double? Yes, you can get through the notes. I tried to play Paganini at eleven and I'm sure I massacred it. :D

Also, fwiw, being a non- Suzuki teacher doesn't mean I don't use games or teach children to play by ear. I teach traditional fiddle as well as classical, and we learn all the trad pieces entirely by ear. We improvise and compose, rather than just memorising. We do group lessons and ensemble playing as well as the one-to-ones. I incorporate aspects of Kodaly and Dalcroze etc. so my students use solfege as well as reading notes, and they can lilt then play back a phrase, if not yet a whole tune, but they can also sightread, because how else do you cope with orchestral playing?

So... I challenge the grade four Suzuki child, instead of learning the Bach Double, or rather on addition to, to learn the Minor Swing and improvise on the chord changes. I love Bach, and I also love Grapelli, and I have to thank my first teacher for that. At grade four, improvisation on the minor pent atomic should be fine.

I think someone has already stated that Suzuki book 1 will take a child up to Abrsm grade 3 standard. You can't compare the books to grades easily. And Dd loves the social aspect of Suzuki

Actually suzuki book 1 has about 22 pieces if you include all the variations and excercises. Suzuki focusses on techique rather than reading music. There is a massive emphasis on developing memory and ear training. Ear training is often non existance in traditional music teaching. Developing sense of pitch is really essential for violin.

I don't think you can compare the progression of ABRSM exams and suzuki. A suzuki child will be strong technically, but their knowledge of music theory will be non existant. They might be able to play a grade 4 piece, but they would fail the grade 1 sight reading test. The suzuki child would fly with the music aural/ oral test as they are so used to listening/ playing from memory.

I think that suzuki is good for the violin, but I am not sure that it is suitable for all instruments. I think that the ideal would be to do suzuki for violin and then learn another instrument the traditional way.

I feel suzuki children definitely do play a big repertoire of suzuki, exam and other music. My dc have played folk music during their group lessons and all sorts during orchestra (which is also provided where they learn music).

My Ds (8) is in the middle of book 4 suzuki and working on grade 4 abrsm. Suzuki book 4 is incredible - he has already played a pieces currently in the grade 6 and 7 syllabus and will be learning the bach double very soon. Suzuki children tend to do well in exams as they are playing pieces that are easier than they are used to and they get them to a near perfect position. Sightreading is harder, but that also gets there in the end!

I have had such a positive experience I am looking forward to dc3 starting in a year!

My son began playing at eight, but asked me for lessons a long time before that. I didn't know if he was ready, violin seemed to me to be a difficult instrument and he was already taking piano. If I had to do it over again though, I would have definitely let him start earlier! He loves it so much.

I say go for it, your son is asking to do it! There is no better time than when your child is coming to you and is excited and asking to play! Say yes! There are many ways to keep it fun. Also, there are probably festivals, camps, and opportunities to play in an orchestra with other children and that will be even more fun for your son.

My son's violin teacher uses a combination of traditional and suzuki methods which keeps it interesting and fun.

A child should not be reduced to tears by music learning. Suzuki uses lots of bow games to make learning fun. In fact there is a lot of pre twinkle work before a child plays a violin. Many children lack the strength to hold the violin between the chin and shoulder. Early on dd just used to hold the violin between her chin and shoulder while watching TV just to build up strength in the neck. She also practiced her bow holds with a fake bow. (Ie a wooden piece of Dow with raisen box stuck to it to make the frog. She played lots of games to make it fun.

I had fingers down quickly but really struggled with bowing. As in tears for a week and a further year to make a good sound. This despite the fact that I have very good pitch and sightreading - I'm very left-handed and don't have good coordination! J can sing in tune and learns well aurally as well as by notation, she can position fingers correctly without sticky stripes... But refuses to do it. It's not just the idea of combining the two - I can't get her to play pizz either. Comfort zone much? But she's happy and the parents are happy, and I keep on trying to coax. She can pitch, so once she's over it we will get three fingers in one go with no problems.

I would have gone nuts on Twinkle variations, I think I progressed so quickly because I am easily bored with pieces. I never had trouble learning by ear of improvising, and I have at least three hours' worth of fiddle rep in my head, not counting classical pieces.

My daughter is in year 1 and started violin at five and half. She learnt all the twinkle variations in the first 6 weeks of lessons. I feel she would have lost the will to live if she had done nothing but open strings for that period. The reason why I asked if the girl's violin was the right size was that my daughter started off with an 1/8 violin and was significantly more comfortable when she moved to a 1/10. Suzuki children tend to use smaller sizes of instruments than traditionally taught children according to shop we hired did violin from.

Did cannot read music. She memorised all her pieces that she had learnt in the last 2 terms. What is different is that her teacher expects her practice all the pieces she has learnt. Did has really had to develop her memory. We also have to listen to the cd everyday.

This link gives you an idea of what Suzuki is like

www.slideshare.net/mobile/teofilavasileva/suzuki-violin-method-k-1

Fwiw, I was non-Suzuki, started at 7yo in a group of 8 at school and passed grade 6 with distinction at 11, I think. There was a delay for grade 5 theory and because I started piano at 10. Suzuki would not have suited my family at all, too much else going on. But it's great for some people and I steal pre twinkle ideas.

Also, if open strings is boring then standing shrike someone else plays is boring. Sheesh, it's what you DO with them that makes it interesting!

Really tired,

I do know what I'm doing... And I have about a million open string tunes with awesome piano parts. Usually it's around six weeks max to get three fingers. I can't help it if the child won't do it, so we have to focus on other skills. She's a young six, only in year one, and has good timing and nice tone, and she can read the notes for herself now.

The fiddle is the correct size, she means when pressing the strings it hurts finger pads. Which is, basically, true, at least to begin with until the skin thickens. I last around three hours on fiddle (high tension strings though) but start to get sore fingers after about 45min on harp (other hand) for the same reason.

TheRachael

When did your daughter start violin? Not all child achieve that level of success.

Dd has been learning for just over two terms and is just just mastered allegro book 1. I like Suzuki because it feels like your child is part of a wider community. Suzuki is very good at building enthusiasm.

I totally recommend suzuki method for teaching young children the violin. It is fun and interactive and what they learn in a short amount of time is incredible. My eldest had gained distinction at grade 2 by the time she was 6 and is now taking grade 7 aged 11. She enjoys performing and playing with others as well as playing a wide range of music. Suzuki encourages group learning and this can involve games and reviewing pieces together - playing with others is fun!

Endless open strings for weeks on end are boring as hell for a small child. The child whose fingers hurt, is the violin too big for her?

At 4.5 I'd probably be concentrating on getting a good tone production with the bow, basic coordination, lots of open string tunes to begin with. That might be a different way round to other teachers, but it's probably the way I approach things. We would be developing note-reading skills, but chiefly through rhythm which I think is more easily recognisable than the up-down of different pitches - even a 3yo can spot whether a note is black or white, or if it doesn't have a stick. To begin with, I wouldn't expect a young child to be able to read-and-play but would possibly expect him to read-and-sing, memorise, and then play.

FWIW, I have a 6yo student who still refuses to even attempt playing with left-hand fingers "because it hurts". We're working on her sense of rhythm combining with reading the notes now - she can recognise two crotchet Ds, for example, but tends to play the two notes really quickly and then work out the next note, whereas when she plays from ear they are properly spaced.

Small children have a good sense of pitch, but lack dexterity. Suzuki works well with small children because it develops listening skills. There are plenty of non Suzuki teachers who use elements of the Suzuki method in their teaching. In the early stages of violin playing there is a lot to be said for focussing on playing in tune rather than reading music whatever age you are. The ear training aspect of Suzuki is good for any violinist.

if he's keen go for it! never understood this business of older children catching up - it's not a race.

with a good teacher and his enthusiasm he'll be doing something that could give him a lot of joy.