How much ballet/dance training?

Just read this !
oakmaiden we are in deep dark Wales too .
DD is 17 and is only on grade 5 RAD ballet , there just aren't the classes around here
DD is hoping to go off to Uni next year to do performing arts , with a focus on dance
She does ballet on Sunday (45 minutes ) then has various lessons 3 nights a week after school til 8 pm
I'm going to have so much more time in September when she's at Uni !

have you looked at London Junior Ballet? Their auditions are coming up. Classes are on a sunday.

Dtuk that's a fascinating and informative post!

Oakmaiden.... definitely twitching too much. As someone else mentioned, there are children who will get into vocational school not doing even half of your daughter's dance hours. It is tougher if they apply after Y7 it's true, but everyone's in the same boat on that one. The harsh truth is, that yes, they may give the place to the once a week girl with the perfect physique, over someone who has been drilled intensively for 20 hours a week. In reality, they often do.

Never forget that what vocational schools really want, is a blank slate. Even if they are auditioning for Y8 or Y9, the school will still prefer a child who has been neatly taught at a more basic level, over one who has been doing endless hours of classes, private lessons and comps to a high level. This isn't an opinion... this is a fact!

Over-prepared children become a hindrance, because they are too ingrained in their previous teachers ways. Whether the previous teacher is good, bad or indifferent is irrelevant, the child still has to go through the difficult, soul destroying and often futile process of being retaught to the schools own technique and methodology. In many cases, it's simply not worth the effort for the school to take them on. There are local dance teachers who can work to a technical standard that will satisfy most vocational schools, but they are very few and far between.

Then there is also the issue of whether the child is the right 'fit'. There is one student I know who was a RBS Associate from start to finish and also got places offered for Northern Associates and York scholars. She danced child roles with the Bolshoi when they toured to London amongst other things, passed every RAD exam with high Distinction marks and won at All England finals. Yet despite auditioning for RBS and Elmhurst every year, she didn't get offered a place. Now this girl is an undeniable talent, but clearly the ballet schools did not see her as the right 'fit'. This is a story that is repeated year in, year out, leaving many parents (and dance teachers) scratching their heads, wondering why.

The dance world is cruel... and looking back on my career, I must admit, it's worse for children now than in my day. The emphasis on conforming to a physical ideal is now always the overriding consideration. Potentially great performers and artists are being denied the chance of a career simply because, their achilles is a fraction too short, or their calf muscles are the wrong shape. In recent years I have encountered many young vocation school students who DO NOT have a burning passion for dance, they simply have the right body and are doing it because it's what's expected of them. That works for the Russians, but it doesn't work here!

Having said all this, the one thing I would advise, is that the word of a handful of vocational schools, is NOT the death knell for your child's dance career. If they have the talent, the attitude and the determination, they will find a route into this industry. It may just not be the one that they, or you, were expecting. Some of the most talented and successful people I have worked with, have had to battle very very hard to achieve that success and not all of them have got their by the 'conventional' route.

One note of caution for all dance mums... always be suspicious whenever the word 'POTENTIAL' passes a dance teacher's lips. We have many and varied ways of using this word, not all of them positive! In some cases it may be a genuine belief in the child's talent, but in others it could be that the child has potential, ONLY if they stop being lazy, get a brain in their head and have an attitude transplant. In the latter case, the word potential is used to placate the parent, ensure that they continue to come to class and PAY, whilst all the time knowing that the child hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming a dancer. Please note that I am saying this with tongue firmly in cheek!!!

We also are going to Cheltenham! Last All England Dd was in the first junior group our school had ever got through to the finals in London and came away with a third place medal. We used to be in the south west region but this year they have re-jigged the regions so we are apparently going to get to dance on a larger stage at Cheltenham.

I agree with taxi.

Dd had a big problem with proprioception because she had learnt the wrong muscle memory (shoulders able to go right back) & this affected her balance & core stability.

If she has had issues with injury before (which may have been down to hypermobility) it would be really beneficial to get her assessed by a dance physio before she starts on any flexibility training, because there may be some things she needs to work on more than others, and some exercises she should avoid like the plague!

If you want to work on flexibility, is there a rhythmic gymnastics club nearby? (please note not normal gymnastics). Rhythmic coaches specialise in increasing flexibility and core strength due the demands of the sport. They are well used to dealing with kids with hypermobility syndrome as most successful rhythmic gymnasts will be somewhere in the scale.

I know some rhythmic clubs do run specialist classes for dancers who want to work on their flexibility.

Ballet is so very competitive, you don't get paid much if it becomes your career and even if you went to the Royal Ballet School you may still be assessed out, year on year. I know of several girls who got into White Lodge and only one has had a successful career. Another was done by 21 because of injury. I'm sorry to sound negative but I think for someone to want to go to a ballet school they must love it with a passion like no other and be very talented as well. Because it's not like it's even well paid.

It's very expensive but I can greatly reccomend the Lisa Howell flexibility programme.

Can you ask for a daily conditioning exerise plan to work on flexibility?
DD2 does ballet and Gymnastics. Gymnastics provides a conditioning exercise sheet. DD2 works hard to maintain her flexibility. It benefits her ballet as well as her gymnastics.

It changes slightly in year 8, by year 9 they are expected to be working at Intermediate or above.

Your dd sounds very like my dd was 2 years ago oak maiden (even down to the flexibility /hyper mobility issues)

Due to various reasons her mass took grade 2 aged 9 then spent over 2 years in grade 3. She did 1 45 min ballet class per week plus 1 tap, modem & jazz. She was behind. In year 6 she did two terms of monthly RAD associates.

At the very very last minute (just before may half term) she auditioned for vocational school & to our surprise got in. Children also joined in year 8 so it is possible.

It is theballet you need to concentrate on - other stuff can come later. You asked what the timetable is like in the first year of Vocational school. It reads something like this
Mon 1x 90 min morning ballet
1x 60 min afternoon ballet
1x 60 min tap
Tues 1x 90 min morning ballet
1x 60 min modern
Wed 1x 60 min ballet
Thurs 1x 90 min ballet
1x 60 min street
Fri 1x 90 min ballet
1x 60 min ballet
1x 60 min tap
Sat 1x 60 min pilates
1x 60 min modern
1x 60 min creative

In ballet they are mostly working at intermediate foundation level.

My dd dances every day yes, but not at a vocational school (although she may as well be... I never see her!).

This is her current schedule:
Monday: 45mins body conditioning, 1 and a half hours intermediate ballet, 1 hour group rehearsal
Tuesday 45mins jazz, 45 mins Greek, 45 mins tap, 45 mins student programme (can be anything, at the moment it's extra jazz for an exam).
Wednesday 45 mins grade 7 ballet, 1 hour 15mins intermediate ballet, 1 hour pas de deux.
Thursday 1 hour tap 1 hour group rehearsal
Friday 1 hour song and dance, 1 hour modern, 45 mins tap, 45 mins group rehearsal
Saturday 1 hour intermediate ballet, 45 mins body conditioning and then anything up to five or six hours of group rehearsals/private lessons.
Sundays are a mystery! Some weeks she is at the studios from 9am-6pm, some (rare!) weeks we have the day off.

Then at school she does dance club Thursday lunchtimes too, and choir. I don't know how she does it but the more she does the more she wants to do and the better she gets. And to be honest at least I know where she is and that she isn't hanging around getting into trouble!
She is 12. Has been dancing since she was 2. She i currently doing 9 festival solos, 1 duet and 17 group dances, almost all of which have qualified for the All England Regional finals.

My eight year old son (who wants to go to elmhurst when he is 11 if he can) does:
Mondays 45 mins ballet
Tuesdays 45 mins jazz
Wednesday 30 mins Greek
Fridays 30 mins modern, 30 mins tap, 30 mins song and dance
Saturdays 45mins ballet and 45 mins body conditioning.
He is in four group dances and probably has 2hours most weeks rehearsals and maybe an hour of privates for his 3 solos and 3 duets.

My 5 year and 7 year olds do two ballet classes a week, street jazz, modern, Greek, tap and song and dance. Both are in two groups each and the seven year old has 1 solo and the five year old has one solo but is about to learn two more.

This is why i am poor!

I must say, my dd has a friend at Hammond and she does less dance in a week than my dd does. The RBS friend I think does a couple of hours a day.

I think it is possible to not be as advanced in training and still be offered a place, but highly unusual. Easier for boys than girls I would assume.

Associates would probably be a good way to go. Well worth doing the rounds of open days and the like if you've not already done that, it gives you a feel for it all and you'll see whether it's right for her. I agree it's not necessarily all about grades; however sound technique and style are essential. there can be many more opportunities at FE / 6th form level, and far more avenues through which to pursue it. Keep all doors open!

Hypermobility can be a positive advantage for ballet dancers , but it needs to be controlled with core strength training, and correct technique (my dd is hypermobile too).

Have you thought about looking for a specialist dance physio who would be able to advise on this? Regular doctors and physios are good but might not have the specialist knowledge of the specific needs of dancers as they don't come across them all that often.

Oh yes, associate classes/ That might be a good idea

The only person I know who went to Elmhurst did very little dance. Just the once a week type class, but didn't then go on achieve potential, or the necessary technique, and ended up doing bits of cabaret dance before a complete career change into admin.

Good dancers I know who applied for RB and the like at 11 have been ahead, similar to scenario I think dancestomytune mentions. They all do lots of classes, though, some into festivals and other dance genres, others not. But all seem to have private lessons and extra classes. All very very dedicated and hard working and determined.

You hear about people doing the one class a week being picked out on potential, but that must be so rare nowadays? And I'd say that would apply more to associate class auditions than vocational school auditions.

Good luck to your daughter. I do hope she succeeds. It is certainly possible.